Maura Murray

citigirl wrote:

<quoted text>Orko Kringer"maura's car was a very dark green (almost black) color of car.
At night with very little light visibility and right after a rounded curve, that type of car would be highly vulnerable to being struck if left there.
They had to move it that night." If you didnt know the color of the car why would you post that is dark green almost black? You also stated they had to move it that night. LE had the vehicle towed. I was only inquiring as to how you knew the vehicle needed to be moved. Im blood related regardless of your opinion. You are telling me to quit posting? I thought this was a public forum where anyone can post? Maybe Im wrong but I thought I read in the past you were a journalist. Hope not.

no I said quit posing, not quit posting.

Don't claim to be this big insider, when you really are not one.

And splitting hairs is about all you are good for.

I was describing the car and I said it looked black. I didn't want to state it as absolute fact it was black because some moron would come on here and say "well technically the car is a kelly green" or something on the lines of that. My whole point was her car was a dark color and you know that. the question I was answering wasn't what was maura's model and make of her saturn, but why would police move her car and not just leave it parked where the accident occured.

But you have to pick apart everyone's words and truth is you have no more knowledge about this case than anyone else.

serendipitously, i just got to the following post by jenkins as i continue working my way through this topix thread.

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/franconia-nh/...

i've excerpted a portion below.

Jenkins wrote:

<quoted text>
During the winter in NH people crash cars all the time an leave them on the side of the road, this is a daily occurrence in the north country.

Not sure if jenkins has since changed his position on this statement, and if so, it isn't my intention to place him in a negative light by pulling this post up from last september. just thought the timing was a happy coincidence.

FrmLE wrote:

<quoted text>
May I ask you, where do you think she is living? Outside the US?
Do you have any theories as to how she makes money, supports herself? Do you think she has help from another person who also must have disappeared as the same time or shortly after?
Do you think that after almost 10 years that desire she had to run away from her family may fade some?
Have you ever heard of someone so young, with so few resources, who disappeared succesfully for this length of time?
<quoted text>
As do I, hope she is still alive. I just don't think she is.

I always figured Canada was where she went, at least initially.

She appeared to be a smart girl despite some issues she had in her life when she disappeared, I am certain that if she is alive she would find a way to support herself.

I think she had to have help to disappear, but no real theory about a "life" with another person. I don't think that person would have had to disappear like Maura did. Could have been native of Canada or wherever, no family...etc.

I think the hardest thing would be to take the initial steps to disappear. Whatever it was that made her do that had to be awfully compelling, so no, I don't think it had to fade over time.

Young people disappear all the time and are never found..so yeah I think it happens often enough.

whatif wrote:

serendipitously, i just got to the following post by jenkins as i continue working my way through this topix thread.
http://www.topix.com/forum/city/franconia-nh/...
i've excerpted a portion below.
<quoted text>
Not sure if jenkins has since changed his position on this statement, and if so, it isn't my intention to place him in a negative light by pulling this post up from last september. just thought the timing was a happy coincidence.

If my memory serves me correctly, I believe Smith said commonly skiers leave their cars under such circumstances, alcohol etc, during his initial conversation with family per Sharon. He then mentioned something about the possibility the driver left via a snowmobile.

This was posted on the old MMM site, and I don't have notes with me.

citigirl wrote:

<quoted text>Mauras car was not dark green. Right after the rounded curve? Where do you get your info from? When you state LE had to tow her car that night what did LE tell you that there reasoning was for towing Mauras car that night? Thank you.

From the drawings and descriptions I have read, her car was in the eastbound lane, facing westbound. This is immediately following a left hand 90 degree curve when heading eastbound. There is no shoulder there in summer and the shoulder is a snow bank in winter. If for no other reason, her car had to be moved because it was in the road and would have caused another accident.

FrmLE wrote:

This was not an abandonded vehicle. This was an accident, was called in by several people, who reported a woman had an accident and the car was unable to move from the scene.
This is not an abandonded vehicle.
In my experience the police did exactly the same thing that we have done for the last 25 years or so, call a tow truck, do an accident report, talk to witnesses, and look for the driver.

Called in by several? I only know of two, and one never said anything about the condition of the vehicle.

But your spelling is stellar.:)

Topix is where social lives go to rot.

whatif wrote:

serendipitously, i just got to the following post by jenkins as i continue working my way through this topix thread.
http://www.topix.com/forum/city/franconia-nh/...
i've excerpted a portion below.
<quoted text>
Not sure if jenkins has since changed his position on this statement, and if so, it isn't my intention to place him in a negative light by pulling this post up from last september. just thought the timing was a happy coincidence.

I haven't changed my position on that at all, that statement is true. In NH during the winter people slide off te road all the time, minor accidents & leave their car there & hitch a ride back to town. This is very common for both drunk & sober people alike.
When you're way up north you have no idea how long it might take for a cop to show up at a minor accident like that, especially if you don't know if someone called the cops or not. Often times die to the size of te area and the amount of cops working it could take an easy hour or longer for a cop to come along. People know this. They're under no legal obligation to stay with the vehicle.
In a situation like Maura's it would've been best for hert to stay with the car considering it was night and she was vulnerable but who wants to sit there freezing for an hour for no particular reason? I'm sure the last thing she thought was that she was going to be abducted, what are the chances ya know?

But my point is, and was, just because someone leaves their car after they slide off the road means absolutely nothing as far as their level of intoxication.

Maura actually stayed with her car for an easy 15 minutes, maybe even longer. It took LE 19 mins to get on scene after te first call, which was probably a couple minutes after the crash. She was spotted just minutes before LE arrived. That means she must've been there for at least 15 minutes. Not exactly the actions of someone who is actively eluding LE. For all we know she WAS waiting for the cops and after almost 20 mins thought they weren't coming. We don't know, anything is just speculation.

thanks for your response, jenkins. i was curious if vehicles are often abandoned by drivers in the north country and you've indicated that they are, especially in winter months, regardless of cause (intoxication, sliding off road, minor accident, etc.)

i also wanted to be sure i wasn't misrepresenting your sentiments when i dredged up an older post. with a thread like this that spans such a length of time, i could certainly understand how, if a poster changes their mind about some sort of detail, it could cause confusion for someone like me to bring up an older post that might contradict that poster's present sentiments.

Hi al ,I have never seen posted that Sgt.Smith sat with his lights on to warn oncoming traffic.If that was the case was he waiting for the driver to return to the car with the rag in the tailpipe.Also we have the witness on Mr.Renners site saying the door or doors were open.Did JKM hang out on Bunga road with Sgt Smith before Feb.09 2004.ROs' daughter was alive when the saturn was found.The whole search warrant thing has always bothered me.I would like to see another example of a search warrant for an illegally parked car in N.H.TAKE CARE PHILIP

What would be the reason RO would say JKM stopped and then recognized her because of her daughters accident? I don't get it. Why?

The witness account of the police by Saturn, with the car door open, is in the April, 2011 SOCO article: http://issuu.com/soco/docs/april11

Article begins on page 76 and SC's recollection of seeing Maura's car is on page 80.

I was of the understanding that JKM was acquainted with RO from living in the area and stopped his patrol vehicle (when he saw a woman walking alone around 8pm near 112/Bunga) to check/chat and began with, "oh it's you" -- or something to that effect.

Frostman wrote:

The witness account of the police by Saturn, with the car door open, is in the April, 2011 SOCO article: http://issuu.com/soco/docs/april11
Article begins on page 76 and SC's recollection of seeing Maura's car is on page 80.
I was of the understanding that JKM was acquainted with RO from living in the area and stopped his patrol vehicle (when he saw a woman walking alone around 8pm near 112/Bunga) to check/chat and began with, "oh it's you" -- or something to that effect.

Yes, that's how I recall the conversation as well, but RO attributed his recognition of her based on the fact that he was the officer who responded to her daughters accident and he had been to her home or something like that.

FrmLE wrote:

<quoted text>
Car abandonded after minor accident, towed to tow yard.
Car abandonded due to mechanical problems obstructing traffic, towed to tow yard.
Car abandonded not obstructing traffic, usually left there for a day or so.

Not that he needs any endorsement by me. But since I was asked specifically and have too much on my plate to read every response. I can tell you that looks exactly like the way police handle the cars I have seen here in CT.

More to the point, I use to handle the disposition of the patients, not the cars. The only time I was concerned with the cars was when my patients were trapped inside.

And yes, usually the only times I saw someone run from a car, correction, the only time I saw someone who ran from a car was when they were drunk or high. Only one exception to that, and that person within minutes reported that they had gone to a specific house so they were not evading anyone.

You have two first responders on this forum, that I am aware of. I have told you my experience has been virtually 100%. I am certain that FrmLE has had far more contacts like that than I. I would ask him what his experience is. Maybe it's not 100%, but I'll bet it's over 95%. But I don't want to put words in his mouth.

The old expression, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck.....it's a freaking duck. I know that citigirl disagrees but there are many things that can be inferred from patterns that we learn from with experience.

Bill

Orko Kringer wrote:

<quoted text>
no I said quit posing, not quit posting.
Don't claim to be this big insider, when you really are not one.
And splitting hairs is about all you are good for.
I was describing the car and I said it looked black. I didn't want to state it as absolute fact it was black because some moron would come on here and say "well technically the car is a kelly green" or something on the lines of that. My whole point was her car was a dark color and you know that. the question I was answering wasn't what was maura's model and make of her saturn, but why would police move her car and not just leave it parked where the accident occured.
But you have to pick apart everyone's words and truth is you have no more knowledge about this case than anyone else.

I apoligize for the mistake. pose/post Its not nice to call people morons

Frostman wrote:

The witness account of the police by Saturn, with the car door open, is in the April, 2011 SOCO article: http://issuu.com/soco/docs/april11
Article begins on page 76 and SC's recollection of seeing Maura's car is on page 80.
I was of the understanding that JKM was acquainted with RO from living in the area and stopped his patrol vehicle (when he saw a woman walking alone around 8pm near 112/Bunga) to check/chat and began with, "oh it's you" -- or something to that effect.

You are correct. ROs daughters accident was some time after Maura disappeared.

WTH I have a question please. BillNH stated in a previous posting they are friends with the new owner that bought RFs house. BillNH stated that cadaver dogs were in another area searching for another reason possibbly a missing hiker on MT Washington. Then stating that after this other search cadaver dogs went and searched RFs property concerning Maura and said the area was cleared. Although I know nothing about cadaver dogs to me it sounded unusual that the dogs would brought to 2 seperate areas concerning 2 different cases. I personally think this would be very confusing to the dogs. Could you please give me your opinion on this. Thank you.

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
Not that he needs any endorsement by me. But since I was asked specifically and have too much on my plate to read every response. I can tell you that looks exactly like the way police handle the cars I have seen here in CT.

thanks for your response and perspective, wth-the-original. i appreciate you taking the time to answer my question.

what follows is pure speculation and conjecture on my part, none of which changes the fact that maura went missing. i've also been doing my due diligence in going through past postings to be sure i'm not retreading ground. to my knowledge thus far, this has not been brought up for discussion before, but if it has, my apologies. my point in tossing this speculation out is to toss out a theory for discussion and to hear your feedback on whether my theory is plausible, and why it may or may not be.

in case it haven't been clear enough yet, what follows is next is PURE SPECULATION.

perhaps mr. atwood (sbd) either indicated to maura that he was, in fact, going to call police (whether or not she wanted him to) or he implied it strongly enough that, once he was gone, maura began gathering items from inside her vehicle and either stuffed them in her backpack or into her bags, which she may have then transferred from the rear seat to the trunk, taking her backpack of course. while she was in her trunk, she may have thought that stuffing the rag in the exhaust would have prevented it from starting up (to prevent it from being stolen). with the tailpipe being hot, she grabbed her plastic coke bottle she had in the car, poured what contents remained on the ground and used it to stuff the rag up the tailpipe as far as she could manage and then tossed the plastic bottle either under the car or flung it away towards the tree line, wherever it landed that smith eventually discovered it. and then, in that mysterious few minutes, maybe maura didn't run east or west or into the deep forest. maybe she only ran far enough away from the scene where she could be hidden enough to not be discovered, but from a spot where she could still see the scene. perhaps she was hoping she could wait out the police response, wait for them to come and go and then, when the coast was clear, she could return to the car and hop in and drive away. but what she didn't plan or count on was law enforcement having the vehicle towed. and maybe when she saw that occur, she then realized she was in an even worse spot than she imagined. so, once law enforcement were finally clear of the scene, it was then maura came out of hiding and headed off in whichever direction to who knows where.

so, as a number of you replied, law enforcement – depending on the circumstances – may or may not have the vehicle towed. given the circumstances of where and how maura's car ended up, crashed on a dangerous curve, law enforcement had it towed. maybe maura was hoping they would just note it or leave a citation and she would be able to return to the vehicle shortly after they had gone.

this brings me to the end of this bit of speculation. i'd be interested to hear from you all if there is anything of the known facts of her disappearance that night that would make this not plausible. i'm not inclined to say if you cannot disprove it, then it must be true. i'm just looking for a plausible reason why she might have been able to disappear in such a small window of a few minutes. thanks for humoring me.

FrmLE wrote:

This was not an abandonded vehicle. This was an accident, was called in by several people, who reported a woman had an accident and the car was unable to move from the scene.
This is not an abandonded vehicle.
In my experience the police did exactly the same thing that we have done for the last 25 years or so, call a tow truck, do an accident report, talk to witnesses, and look for the driver.

No one ever stated the car was unmoveable. First responders dont know why Maura just didnt get in the vehicle and drive off.

citigirl wrote:

<quoted text>Im not disputing there was alcohol in the car. I dont know whether or not Maura was or was not drinking that night and neither does any one else. There is no proof either way because she was not there. Its only assumption by others.

That's not a bad assumption if I was going to try and break this assumption down using the scientific method or logic theory the "assumption" would then be called a hypothesis, and there would be many supporting factors that could help strenghten this hypothesis. Because MM wasn't tested to be DUI it doesn't discredit anyone's asumption or hypothesis, and your argument isn't strengthened by MM not being around to be tested.

There is so much more evidence to make a proper assumption that MM was drinking in the vehicle than for anyone to even whisper that there is foul play in this case.

So if anyone wants to say "we can't know for sure that MM was drinking" than I think it would only be fair that they back up their evedential arguments with the next phrase " since we can't see any evidence now for foul play we can only assume if MM perished it was by her own actions either intentionally or accidental."

Your trying to make a Paradox here as it pertains to the alchol in the vehicle.