Maura Murray

aftermath wrote:

<quoted text>
There WAS snow in the woods at the time she disappeared. If she ran, she ran on the highway. No way that a 21-year old female would run off into the woods even if she in advance would have known that you and "Snowy" would later be working overtime to push the "she was drunk and wanted to hide, we get'em all the time," theory. SBD did not tell her that he was going to call the police. Running off in the woods? Do you believe she thought she'd come across the yellow brick road in the woods? Land of sunshine, rest and opportunity? She was not stupid. I do agree that many low-functioning folk might try something like running off in the woods (even when they're not drinking). Familiar with the outdoors, Maura was aware of the dangers of ignoring the elements. She was an intelligent young woman who valued her life and would not risk it wandering around in the woods in February(just to avoid the police). She would have considered the consequence of what happens after trotting off into the woods? She would have considered the consequence of choosing that option. Your runaway into the woods theory is as nonsensical as the "Aliens got her" theory.

Yep, I guess your correct. Just like I didn't find an engineering student with his finger stuck in an automobile gas tank on a freezing cold night. Yep, smart people never do really stupid things like running off to avoid a drunk driving arrest. You must be right. All those people we tracked sometimes for over an hour wouldn't have gotten lost or died if they had headed out doing the same thing in the White mountains.

You know nothing about people in panic. They will and continue to do remarkably stupid things. Add alcohol and adrenalin and there is no limit to how stupid they can be.

But you keep imagining the world is a very tidy place were people don't make stupid mistakes and always pick the rational choice.

Bill

Snowy wrote:

<quoted text>
well stated; points well made.
i'll state the obvious...at least to my reality.
as a basic premise, a car sliding off the road into a shoulder, or spinning around to reverse direction is not uncommon in VT, ME and NH; the immediate indication would not necessarily point to any particular criminal action.
in an area with spotty cell reception the first assumption by authorities might be that a driver sought shelter and/or assistance at a nearby residence.
for all the reasons you state, the possibility for criminal action by MM or taken against her would not be immediately determined until a cursory search of the vehicle and surrounding area revealed evidence to that effect.
if the car was registered to FM, and the remained driver absent, the registered owner would be contacted after a reasonable period of time. a student parking sticker may or may not be current, but would also be a clue to the identity of the driver. of course, FM wasn't available to answer the call.
it's hard to blame LE, IMO, as her father has, for not IMMEDIATELY finding her. LE are not guardian angels charged with hovering over our personal safety 24/7.

Good points. Parking sticker valid for academic year 2003-2004. IOW, it was current.

Oh and the engineering student. He finger was stuck and he couldn't reach around with his other hand to get his cell phone to call for help. So he stood there becoming extremely hypothermic in this freezing rain and high winds while all these cars drove past him on the exit of an interstate. He was a junior at a very good engineering school. He didn't even have the excuse that he was drunk. But he was seriously hypothermic by the time we were called. His embarrassment, because of how he got his finger stuck, knew no bounds.

Bill

Frostman wrote:
"Completely unbeknownst to LE et al (at this point) MM has simply walked down the road (E/B) a ways around 7:30 seeking a better cell reception to call AAA again (we’ve all done that when our signal waxes and wanes). MM doesn’t know LE has been called so she figures she’ll pick the car up in the morning or later that night and shoves the rag in the exhaust to prevent the car from being nicked by joy riders. So “Red Truck”(knight in shining armor) maybe posing as LE/EMS/Military (whom she’d possibly obtained ill-fated directions from at the pit-stop) offers a lift back to town."

Frostman,
Seems like you've upset Snowy with the above portion of your post? Does it everytime. Knight? Actually, a lot of people believe that someone with either LE training or military training may have nabbed her. It makes a lot more sense then her tip-toeing through the snowy forest that night, doesn't it? And yet...why such negative response toward the perspective you pose. Why? You really know who to make Snowy, et all, come roaring out of cyberspace all bent out of shape. Wonder what makes them, Snowy et all, so very opposed and reactive toward the theory you mention?

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
You know nothing about people in panic. They will and continue to do remarkably stupid things. Add alcohol and adrenalin and there is no limit to how stupid they can be.
But you keep imagining the world is a very tidy place were people don't make stupid mistakes and always pick the rational choice.
Bill

This is so accurate. I would say that about 80% of the opinions spewed on this forum are based on assumptions and speculation. Things like, "no way a 21 yr old would.." do this, or not do that.
People have no idea what really goes on, lol, if they didn't see it on TV they have no concept, and want to know what else? WE are the idiots trying to argue with people who have no idea what they are talking about!!
Same thing as the other thread, "She would have not gone into the woods, He wouldn't have run away into the woods, he would have curled up in a ball, she would have stayed with the car, etc etc etc.."
The things people do, whether they are drunk or not, often times make absolutely NO SENSE whatsoever!! People defy logic and common sense ALL THE TIME! If any of you ever base your theory on the assumption that someone MUST HAVE DONE SOMETHING, or AOMEONE WOULD NOT HAVE DONE SOMETHING, you are already wrong right out of the gate.
PEOPLE DO CRAZY NONSENSICAL THINGS!!! All the time, every single day. Read the paper, watch the news. Seriously

aftermath wrote:

Frostman wrote:
"Completely unbeknownst to LE et al (at this point) MM has simply walked down the road (E/B) a ways around 7:30 seeking a better cell reception to call AAA again (we’ve all done that when our signal waxes and wanes). MM doesn’t know LE has been called so she figures she’ll pick the car up in the morning or later that night and shoves the rag in the exhaust to prevent the car from being nicked by joy riders. So “Red Truck”(knight in shining armor) maybe posing as LE/EMS/Military (whom she’d possibly obtained ill-fated directions from at the pit-stop) offers a lift back to town."
Frostman,
Seems like you've upset Snowy with the above portion of your post? Does it everytime. Knight? Actually, a lot of people believe that someone with either LE training or military training may have nabbed her. It makes a lot more sense then her tip-toeing through the snowy forest that night, doesn't it? And yet...why such negative response toward the perspective you pose. Why? You really know who to make Snowy, et all, come roaring out of cyberspace all bent out of shape. Wonder what makes them, Snowy et all, so very opposed and reactive toward the theory you mention?

Just to make sure. You think, a killer, either waiting there, or just by chance, dressed in a LE or military uniform? or just with that type of knowledge. Compared to say, her just running away to avoid a drunk driving charge. In particular when there is no evidence of a struggle. No one who was watching the area heard anything or saw anything out of the ordinary.

So you hear unicorns approaching?

Occam would be proud.

Bill

aftermath wrote:

<quoted text>
Snowy,
Obviously you would have great difficulty connecting the dots even with a magnifying glass. I suspect that the dots do not connect for you much of the time. Obviously, you must have been involved in the search in some capacity.

you flatter me too much to imagine i was connected with the search in some capacity.
i have little patience for mystery and intrigue formulated without a factual basis. it is irritating...and more so when it is redundant.
but thanks, anyway.

Beagle wrote:

<quoted text>
Good points. Parking sticker valid for academic year 2003-2004. IOW, it was current.

TY, Beagle. i recall you had some unfortunate experience surrounding that issue. in this PC world, you can't even breathe the wrong way.

Frostman wrote:

PS We heard that “Beagle” was going to donate $10 for each post he’s made on Topix and other sites over the years to the Reward fund. In the spirit of the festive season and in celebration of living in a country where we have the privilege of freedom of speech perhaps it would be fitting if we all followed suit!

That would close mouths fast. Hits would decline, then advertising dollars (which makes Topix possible) would plummet, and then what? We'd be bored because we're cheap or broke. Or we'd make what we say really count.

What happened to the big-money idea? I can confess for the right price. Let's make a deal. I know exactly the right red and silver metal bench in Hadley MA where we can arrange everything. Email me a Merry Christmas greeting at least.

aftermath wrote:

<quoted text>
There WAS snow in the woods at the time she disappeared. If she ran, she ran on the highway. No way that a 21-year old female would run off into the woods even if she in advance would have known that you and "Snowy" would later be working overtime to push the "she was drunk and wanted to hide, we get'em all the time," theory. SBD did not tell her that he was going to call the police. Running off in the woods? Do you believe she thought she'd come across the yellow brick road in the woods? Land of sunshine, rest and opportunity? She was not stupid. I do agree that many low-functioning folk might try something like running off in the woods (even when they're not drinking). Familiar with the outdoors, Maura was aware of the dangers of ignoring the elements. She was an intelligent young woman who valued her life and would not risk it wandering around in the woods in February(just to avoid the police). She would have considered the consequence of what happens after trotting off into the woods? She would have considered the consequence of choosing that option. Your runaway into the woods theory is as nonsensical as the "Aliens got her" theory.

I find most of your theories nonsensical. I doubt anyone had to tell her the police would be coming. She had an accident and her car was stuck on a sharp curve in a dangerous position. What do you mean by low functioning folks?
I think that anyone if stressed enough or afraid enough can go into the woods to avoid whatever they're running from.
How can you say with any certainty that she valued her life and wouldn't risk it when that's exactly what she did when she headed to NH in the winter in an unreliable car without telling anyone she was leaving, refused any help from the SBD, chose not to go to any of the 5 houses in plain view to ask for help or to use their phone, and walked away from her car in the opposite direction of where she just came from where she had passed a store and several houses all within walking distance.
It appears that she didn't consider the consequences of any of her actions that night or maybe she did know what the consequences would be.
IMHO I think unfortunately she made some very poor choices that night but they were her choices to make. No one can be blamed for the actions she herself chose to take.

I appreciate the common sense view of: Maura was with the Saturn at the WB curve and walked away. But doesn't that view rely almost entirely on SBD's account? Not to take anything away from him - he suffered unspeakably - but no one seems to argue for the reliability of SBD's ID of Maura. His visual ID is the main reason for saying she walked away from the scene of the crash. I have a hard time seeing how Maura can convincingly be placed at the car. I agree it's the car she regularly drove, but even if she was drunk and wandered off, which an awful lot of people do (as has been correctly pointed out), but don't most of them show up later?

Look at it this way. There are lots of cars left on the side of the road. For a variety of reason, including OUI and just impossible to explain reasons. Stupid reasons, smart reasons, all kinds of reason. How many of those who abandoned them AND who were the car's regular driver disappeared? For almost 8 years? I would guess a pretty small number. A very small percentage.

Now, how many cars are stolen, their drivers killed by the thief, the body dumped, and the car driven to where it was abandoned? A few, at least. Maybe about the same number as those who disappear from their cars never to be found again?

Seems like both scenarios, minus reliable data, are about equally possible. 1)Maura abandoned her car at the WB curve and walked into woods, never to be found again. Very possible. 2)In the act of stealing her car, someone killed her, dumped her at some unknown location, and drove the Saturn to the point where it was inconvenient to go any further. Seems like a coin toss to me.

jwb wrote:

<quoted text>
I already emailed Mr Renner a couple weeks back on that. Maybe we will hear after christmas.

Thanks for doing that and for reminding me that he does give an email. Not sure I'd ever write an email, but it's important to know this for most people. I mean, here we have at least one person who is accessable and ready to interact. I think it's just marvelous, daw-ling <('.'<)

<('o')> feeling kinda silly........^(

aftermath wrote:

Frostman wrote:
"Completely unbeknownst to LE et al (at this point) MM has simply walked down the road (E/B) a ways around 7:30 seeking a better cell reception to call AAA again (we’ve all done that when our signal waxes and wanes). MM doesn’t know LE has been called so she figures she’ll pick the car up in the morning or later that night and shoves the rag in the exhaust to prevent the car from being nicked by joy riders. So “Red Truck”(knight in shining armor) maybe posing as LE/EMS/Military (whom she’d possibly obtained ill-fated directions from at the pit-stop) offers a lift back to town."
Frostman,
Seems like you've upset Snowy with the above portion of your post? Does it everytime. Knight? Actually, a lot of people believe that someone with either LE training or military training may have nabbed her. It makes a lot more sense then her tip-toeing through the snowy forest that night, doesn't it? And yet...why such negative response toward the perspective you pose. Why? You really know who to make Snowy, et all, come roaring out of cyberspace all bent out of shape. Wonder what makes them, Snowy et all, so very opposed and reactive toward the theory you mention?

And don't forget the mentioning of the word local or mentioning a locals name . That brings out the whole group. They are the innocent they say. What makes them so sure that a local didn't grab her? Are you saying that all the locals in that area are perfect angels? It is not like rt 112 in Swiftwater on a monday night in Feb is a major destination point for out of towners. Yea, I know no proof of a crime at the car but it doesn't mean that a crime wasn't committed along the way..

and seeing double, obviously ^:"

SO a woman who lookes just like Maura, kidnapped her, killed her, dumped the body, then stole her car and crashed it on the curve?

Is that your theory?

just me wrote:

<('o')> feeling kinda silly........^(

He has been pretty good about responding back to me. I also inquired with him about weather he coul;d obtain NHSP call logs for that night. He said he had them posted but I responded back that he had the sheriffs office call logs and Haverhill P.D

Beagle wrote:

Seems like both scenarios, minus reliable data, are about equally possible. 1)Maura abandoned her car at the WB curve and walked into woods, never to be found again. Very possible. 2)In the act of stealing her car, someone killed her, dumped her at some unknown location, and drove the Saturn to the point where it was inconvenient to go any further. Seems like a coin toss to me.

So to you, those 2 scenarios are equally likely? Is that what you are saying?

I personally really struggle with the idea that she walked deep in the woods. I can see walking in the woods to get behind a tree as an on coming car passed by. The trees are very close to the road so she wouldn't have to go far in order to do that . It is just way too dark down that stretch to wander off the road to far. JMHO

just me wrote:

<quoted text>Thanks for doing that and for reminding me that he does give an email. Not sure I'd ever write an email, but it's important to know this for most people. I mean, here we have at least one person who is accessable and ready to interact. I think it's just marvelous, daw-ling <('.'<)

wink wink