Maura Murray

BobJenkins-OG wrote:

Thanks Lighthouse
When I said run away I was referring to her running away and starting a new life, which she had expressed a desire to do, according to some of her friends and family. When her ex bf, the track coach, heard that she was missing he thought to himself that she might have actually done it.
It seems pretty clear that in the first few days/couple weeks this is what the family thought that she had done. If you listen to all their early quotes to the media they were asking for her to come back, which they would only say if they thought she voluntarily had run away.
What I'm saying is that if you look at what is known about Maura, and what she brought with her for her trip, the "climb to the top of a mountain to drink herself to death" theory is absolutely ridiculous. The suicide theory all together seems like a big stretch, it seems much more likely that she would have ran off and started a new life, which she had expressed a desire to do.

I'm assuming MM was a decent human being. Even in her cc fraud she still used a coupon. I don't think she committed cc fraud just for fun. I think she was short on money. If she was planning on running away with only limited funds of $280 why would she buy wine, vodka, Kahlua and Tylenol PM? She spent 20% of her available funds on this? If she thinks that those are the bare essentials for a run away to start a new life then she needs her priorities to be changed. If she was planning on running away why would she stop to grab the accident reports? Even is she mailed or faxed it would leave a paper trial for her to be tracked? If she wasn't going to mail or fax them, then why pick them up in the first place?

BobJenkins-OG wrote:

<quoted text>
Bill that's a silly comparison. That guy was a hardcore outdoor enthusiast. It says right in that article you linked that he climbed all 48 of nh's 4000' "in winter, from all four sides". The guy was an avid winter climber even writing about tips for winter climbing.
Maura hiked in the summer, she didn't climb mts in the winter; that's two very different things. She also thought that climbing the mts in the summer time was very challenging. Now she just thinks that she can climb the same mountain in the winter wearing Jeans and flats?? She doesn't even bring hiking boots?
Do a little research, I garauntee Waterman used some sort of gear to insure he made it to the top of the mountain before letting himself die. There's no way he put on a pair of jeans and loafers, left his gloves in his car and just walked up mt Lafayette in February, no way in hell.
There is just no way that this was Maura's plan, no way. Saying she was suicidal at all is already a stretch but I can maybe see that, to say that she was planning on climbing to the top of a mt in Feb to drink herself to death is just absolutely ridiculous and it defies all logic
Comparin her to one of the most hardcore winter mt climbers in the north country is a real stretch

No one said she was trying to reach a specific summit. The comparison is in two people, one who we know committed suicide in the manner you don't think someone would do, and the other, someone who might have committed suicide or accidentally died in conditions that are similar.

Bill

Bob Jenkins,

here is an excerpt from a book review of "Not Without Peril. In this excerpt the reviewer quotes a part from the book.

Interesting to get into the mind-set of someone who is comfortable around mountains.

"Howe (book author) makes no judgment about those whose misfortunes he chronicles; there are tender moments that manage to stay faithful to a crusty Yankee sensibility, as in the tale of Lizzie Bourne, who died in a snowstorm while huddled in a makeshift lean-to. Howe quotes her uncle George: "She was dead--had uttered no complaint, expressed no regret or fear, but passed silently away."

this is the book maura had with her when she just so happened to end up in the white mountains before she disappeared. As you can see from this excerpt done from an experienced hiker, dying (even in the middle of a snowstorm in the mountains) does seem to take on sort of a romanticized (noble way to go) theme.

Question for you.

If maura was just running away, then why pack up her dorm and leave her stuff behind? was she going to run away and then sneak back to her dorm months later and get all of her belongings?

Jenkins,nice to see you back posting!

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm assuming MM was a decent human being. Even in her cc fraud she still used a coupon. I don't think she committed cc fraud just for fun. I think she was short on money. If she was planning on running away with only limited funds of $280 why would she buy wine, vodka, Kahlua and Tylenol PM? She spent 20% of her available funds on this? If she thinks that those are the bare essentials for a run away to start a new life then she needs her priorities to be changed. If she was planning on running away why would she stop to grab the accident reports? Even is she mailed or faxed it would leave a paper trial for her to be tracked? If she wasn't going to mail or fax them, then why pick them up in the first place?

I agree with most of this post.
If you look at the supplies she brought with her it doesn't appear she was planning on killing herself or running away forever. The point I was trying to make above was that it seems more likely that she was planning on running away then killing herself. She certainly wasn't planning on climbing a mt in the dead of winter to commit suicide. Sounds like she thought these mts were way too challenging to climb in the summertime to even consider trying to make it up one in winter.
Clearly the supplies she brought would not be adequete to start a new life; I was more referring to things that she said in the past in regards to her desire to start a new life. Basically the girl never expressed suicidal thoughts. Not one person has said that she ever said anyhting about wanting to kill herself, she was described as a wicked happy person who was always smiling. BUt there are a few of her friends and family who describe her expressing a desire to run away and start a new life. If you listen to what her family said at the beginning it sounds like that's exactly what they thought she did.

The most likely thing that she went up NH to do was meet someone, IMO. Something that in my mind points to this as being most likely is the fact that she was calling condos to rent. Who was gonna pay for this condo?? She definetley wasn't with her 280, she barely would be able to cover one night. She wasn't looking for cheap motels, she was looking for condos. If you think about it it would appear that she must have been meeting someone up there, whoever was going to pay for the condo. Also looks like she had drinks for 2 people, a box of wine for one person, black russians for another. Reminds me of hanging out with my ex GF back when I was in college. She obviously couldn't afford hotels so I would tell her: you buy the alcohol, I'll pay for the hotel.
The question in my mind is who was it she was planning on meeting; did she ever meet up with him or did she crash and run into trouble on the way. I've heard people say that this person would have come forward but I could see some guy not wanting to come forward if she never made it up there. First of all she had a BF and in the days following her dissapearance they kept mentioning Billy in the media and saying they were engaged; making it out like they were the perfect " all-american" couple. I could see that guy not wanting to come forward and make Maura look bad. He also would have been opening himself up to a lot of speculation and a lot of people would've automatically assumed he killed her. I could also see this guy not wanting to come forward if he was responsible for her dissapearance, for obvious reasons.

Maura clearly wasn't a bad person. She made mistakes, like the CC fraud, but that doesn't make her a bad person. She was a young college girl who made some mistakes, just like a lot of girls her age do. CC fraud is stupid but it's not the end of the world. It's not like she killed someone. From what her friends say it sounds to me like she was a kind-hearted, caring person.

Orko Kringer wrote:

Bob Jenkins,
here is an excerpt from a book review of "Not Without Peril. In this excerpt the reviewer quotes a part from the book.
Interesting to get into the mind-set of someone who is comfortable around mountains.
"Howe (book author) makes no judgment about those whose misfortunes he chronicles; there are tender moments that manage to stay faithful to a crusty Yankee sensibility, as in the tale of Lizzie Bourne, who died in a snowstorm while huddled in a makeshift lean-to. Howe quotes her uncle George: "She was dead--had uttered no complaint, expressed no regret or fear, but passed silently away."
this is the book maura had with her when she just so happened to end up in the white mountains before she disappeared. As you can see from this excerpt done from an experienced hiker, dying (even in the middle of a snowstorm in the mountains) does seem to take on sort of a romanticized (noble way to go) theme.
Question for you.
If maura was just running away, then why pack up her dorm and leave her stuff behind? was she going to run away and then sneak back to her dorm months later and get all of her belongings?

answer: The packing up of her dorm room would indicate her planning on not returning. WHen I was talking about running away above I was talking about running away an starting a whole new life. SHe had expressed a desire to do just that on several different occasions to a few different people over the years. Her packed room doesn't neccessarily mean this it what she did, but it could point to her not planning on returning.

Personally I don't think anything conclusive can be drawn from the fact that her room was packed; we don't know that she packed it before she left or if it had anything to do with her trip up north. Her room could have still been packed from the winter break, which is over 6 weeks long at UMass.
But also it doesn't sound like Maura was even staying in her room at that point. There has been a lot of speculation that she was actually living off campus with another BF and I believe that to be true. Apparantly most of her neighbors rarely saw her coming and going from her room, which indicates she wasn't staying there. It is very possible that her room was packed up to bring her belongings over to her off campus apt, it's just as likely as her packing up the room before she left.
It seems pretty obvious that she did have another BF, the question is whether or not she was staying at his apt. Fred even references this BF in his statement to Umass cops. He says that they went to a car dealer that her BF has had good luck with in the past. Well Billy was from Ohio and was stationed out in OK; he never lived in mass at all. It seems very unlikely that he went out to western mass to buy a car to drive back to OH or OK.

The book "not without peril" is just as much about survival in the mountains as it is about dying in the white mountains. There are parts of it that almost romanticize dying in the mountains but it seems like a huge stretch of the imigination to say that this might have inspired her to want to go off and die in the mountains. IDK but I do know that this was her favorite book. A couple of her friends talk about seeing her read it. Sharon says that she used to bring it out to OH and read it while visiting them. The book certainly never made her suicidal the first 20 times she read it, why would it suddenly inspire suicide? Besides, doesn't the book only talk about accidents and rescues? Is there a chapter in the book that's about killing yourself on purpose in the mts? We know it was her favorite book so its possible she just had it in her car; it could have been there for months. We have no way of knowing if she packed it into the car just for her trip up north. And if she did pack it wouldn't you think she would bring it with her in her pack to wherever she was going? Again, this is something that no conclusions can or should be drawn from

BobJenkins-OG wrote:

<quoted text>
answer: The packing up of her dorm room would indicate her planning on not returning. WHen I was talking about running away above I was talking about running away an starting a whole new life. SHe had expressed a desire to do just that on several different occasions to a few different people over the years. Her packed room doesn't neccessarily mean this it what she did, but it could point to her not planning on returning.
Personally I don't think anything conclusive can be drawn from the fact that her room was packed; we don't know that she packed it before she left or if it had anything to do with her trip up north. Her room could have still been packed from the winter break, which is over 6 weeks long at UMass.
But also it doesn't sound like Maura was even staying in her room at that point. There has been a lot of speculation that she was actually living off campus with another BF and I believe that to be true. Apparantly most of her neighbors rarely saw her coming and going from her room, which indicates she wasn't staying there. It is very possible that her room was packed up to bring her belongings over to her off campus apt, it's just as likely as her packing up the room before she left.

Good Morning Jenkins and everyone. I believe that her stuff being packed up in a dorm room is because she was moving. I think that is conclusive. I think at some point plans were made for her to move. How long were these plans in the works I have no idea. I believe if she had a scholarship the dorm would be free. Who would move out of free housing?

Maybe she was told by the school she couldn't stay in the dorm room anymore and she had to find another place to stay. Maybe that is why she went back to her fathers hotel late at night. Maybe her father came into town to help her find a new place to live near campus, or even help her pack.

Maybe after she heard that she was getting kicked out of college she was going to go to NH or VT and try to find a job in town and get a job until she could find another school to apply to. In the winter if you need work and want to lay low for a while a ski town like NH or VT would work.

Keep in mind LE in the ID show mention "she had a lot of things going on in her life" I don't think that $79 is a huge deal, but getting kicked out of school for it could be embaressing.

In James Renner´s documents there are references to NHSP having at some point contacted LE in Exeter,NH, and Oxford County (in SW Maine)as well as the Sullivan Co,NY, Dept of Corrections.

Is it feasible that Maura might have been seen in Exeter, NH, and in Oxford County, ME, just across the NH-ME state line?

Was either of these locations the site of the last known observation of Maura, but if so never revealed to the public at large by LE?

Bumping for Maura wrote:

In James Renner´s documents there are references to NHSP having at some point contacted LE in Exeter,NH, and Oxford County (in SW Maine)as well as the Sullivan Co,NY, Dept of Corrections.
Is it feasible that Maura might have been seen in Exeter, NH, and in Oxford County, ME, just across the NH-ME state line?
Was either of these locations the site of the last known observation of Maura, but if so never revealed to the public at large by LE?

I couldn't find the city state of the department of corrections. Do you remember what it was?

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

<quoted text>
I couldn't find the city state of the department of corrections. Do you remember what it was?

Lighthouse,
I´ve got some notes about this somewhere...Just need to dig them up, but this was being mentioned by James Renner on his blog some time earlier this year.
Hope to be back later with more info.

Maura was staying and living at her dorm.
She was escorted back to her dorm by her supervisor the thursday before she went missing and then on sunday when her father departed for connecticut, he drove her back to the dorm.
A fellow nursing student dorm resident was taken to maura's room (after maura went missing) to help investigators understand why maura would have not just her room packed up but everything neatly in boxes and stacked up on her bed with an old email on top of the boxes.
And the fellow dorm resident indicated that maura looked like she was packing up to leave for good NOT that she just hadn't had time to unpack from the winter break. This fellow nursing student would've returned to the dorms at the same time maura did from winter break and would clearly know the difference, hence, why investigators sought her opinion and help.

Lighthouse,

On James Renner´s MM blog there is an entry dated February 3rd 2012, detailing the various LE agencies involved in the MM investigation.
It does make some interesting reading.
Most of the listed agencies are pretty much the obvious ones, but three do stand out.
1.The Sullivan Co, NY, Dept of Corrections
2.The Exeter, NH, PD
3. Oxford County, ME, Sheriff´s Dept

After James Renner´s investigation into Maura´s CC fraud at UMass I´m more than ever leaning in the direction of Maura wilfully disappearing.
I believe this is the single most likely possibility out of many different scenarios.

Think about it:
Maura has been busted with CC fraud at UMass.
She faces the very real risk of being kicked out of UMass, effectively ending her future career as a nurse.
On top of that looming disaster her Saturn car might possibly have been involved in the Vasi hit-and-run case (whether driven by Maura or a friend of hers) and she has wrecked her father´s new car.
Her relationship with her official boyfriend BR is shaky and according to James Renner she once remarked to her track coach and temporary boyfriend at UMass that she´d like to run away and start a new life.

Isn´t it more than likely that all the nasty things piling up in Maura´s life pushed her over the precipice, making her go into flight mode rather than fight mode?

Many people are remarking upon how little money Maura had with her at the time of her disappearance - just a rather meagre 280 dollars.

But: It´s quite possible that she may well have had access to a much larger sum in cash. The 280 dollars from the ATM may only have been a topping-up of much bigger cash reserves assembled over some time.

In the court proceedings dealing with Fred Murray´s attempt to get hold of the LE files concerning Maura´s case, much is being made of the fact that disclosing the last known sighting of Maura would seriously jeopardize the case from an LE point of view.
Now, Maura´s last known sighting/location can hardly be the WB curve on Rte 112 in Haverhill/Bath, NH. That is already a publicly known fact.
So, the likely implication would be that the last known sighting of Maura is a completely different location than the WB curve.

Is it feasible that Maura might have got a ride with a Good Samaritan as far as say Lincoln/North Woodstock and that this person actually never heard of Maura´s subsequent vanishing, and therefore never came forward?
Yes, I believe it is.

Could Maura conceivably have been passing through Exeter, NH, and later crossing the NH/ME state line into Oxford County in SW Maine, either by way of hitch-hiking or by motorcoach?
Yes, I believe she could have done this.

What happened to her later is of course even so as much an enigma as ever before.
She could have suffered an accident, she could have fallen prey to foul play, she could have gone somewhere else entirely within the US and, just possibly, in Canada, perhaps crossing the Maine-Canada border?

So where does the Sullivan County, NY, Dept of Corrections come into all this?
Does the NHSP have some idea of a possible perp who´s now an inmate in that location?
Is this what NH Asst Attorney-General Jeff Strelzin is referring to when he speaks of a 70% chance of prosecution as if they already have a specific perp in mind?

Bumping for Maura wrote:

Lighthouse,

So where does the Sullivan County, NY, Dept of Corrections come into all this?
Does the NHSP have some idea of a possible perp who´s now an inmate in that location?
Is this what NH Asst Attorney-General Jeff Strelzin is referring to when he speaks of a 70% chance of prosecution as if they already have a specific perp in mind?

Thanks for the info.

I just can't see someone disappearing with only $280 and the buy alchol with 20% of the money. Just doesn't make enough sense.

Also why would she pick up the accident reports, that would be pointless?

I also think she would need a very strong motive to runaway from everyone. I don't want to be mean, but I just don't see her being mentally tough enough to handle being on her own and staying out of trouble.

Bumping for Maura wrote:

Lighthouse,
On James Renner´s MM blog there is an entry dated February 3rd 2012, detailing the various LE agencies involved in the MM investigation.
It does make some interesting reading.
Most of the listed agencies are pretty much the obvious ones, but three do stand out.
1.The Sullivan Co, NY, Dept of Corrections

Did she know anyone in Sullivan Co? Did she maybe have a friend who was doing the cc fraud with her. Did her friend get introuble and sent to jail, and then MM decided to take off?

Just a note here, and worthwhile to concider. The links I provided the other day spoke of MM and Louise Chaput.
We all know Luise was killed because they found her body. But NH news wants to bring up MM name too, in making a possible connection with a man they have in custody. This man is admitting to crimes like kidnapping a killing at least 3 people. Two of them were in Burlington Vermont. and they think he could have been all over the map.
I don't know what this says about the investigation. Maybe it was just the reporters thoughts that these two women should be looked at as possible victims to this man. But it does make me wonder if police think MM was murdered. I was saw a site that listed Maura as a homicide and I sent that link to Helena.
Police might be sitting on something, but at the same time being careful not to give the details away by misleading people. Like when they say Maura may have gotten into a car....they don't want anyone they might have in their sites to get any ideas about what they really think.

Just me--paris wrote:

Just a note here, and worthwhile to concider. The links I provided the other day spoke of MM and Louise Chaput.
We all know Luise was killed because they found her body. But NH news wants to bring up MM name too, in making a possible connection with a man they have in custody. This man is admitting to crimes like kidnapping a killing at least 3 people. Two of them were in Burlington Vermont. and they think he could have been all over the map.
I don't know what this says about the investigation. Maybe it was just the reporters thoughts that these two women should be looked at as possible victims to this man. But it does make me wonder if police think MM was murdered. I was saw a site that listed Maura as a homicide and I sent that link to Helena.
Police might be sitting on something, but at the same time being careful not to give the details away by misleading people. Like when they say Maura may have gotten into a car....they don't want anyone they might have in their sites to get any ideas about what they really think.

Probably just a coincidence but there was a car with Texas plates
that was looked into the night Maura disappeared and, this guy Israel was arrested in Texas. Everything I read about israel shoes Washington state, Alaska or NY as residence. I wonder if he ever resided in Texas.

The fact maura's mother died on the very same day her daughter was born (five years later) speaks volumes to me anyway in discrediting the theroy that maura ran away to start a new life or the theory that her parents were helping her cover up a new start somewhere.

Bumping for Maura wrote:

In the court proceedings dealing with Fred Murray´s attempt to get hold of the LE files concerning Maura´s case, much is being made of the fact that disclosing the last known sighting of Maura would seriously jeopardize the case from an LE point of view.
Now, Maura´s last known sighting/location can hardly be the WB curve on Rte 112 in Haverhill/Bath, NH. That is already a publicly known fact.
So, the likely implication would be that the last known sighting of Maura is a completely different location than the WB curve.

This is what I posted a few months ago regarding MM's last known location:

Maruchan wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm re-posting this section of Nancy Smith's statement in case you missed it a few pages ago.
Judge: "How would the disclosure of maps and diagrams interfere with the investigation?"
Smith: "Um ... her car was found ... ah ah ... I, I have not reviewed the specific map and diagram, but I'm assuming, um, that it involves the area in which the disappearance occurred ... um, there were searches done, uh, there may have been maps done of the area searched and what they found or the point to which they could trace her, cause as I understand they, the dogs did trace her scent, uh, for about a hundred yards, um, and that information as far as the specific spot in which she disappeared, if they have a suspect if there is foul play involved, knowing exactly where we determined the last place she was uh could be valulable info to that person."
It is clear that Smith is unfamiliar with the case and is struggling to answer this question. Her statement has nothing whatsoever to do with any facts of the case and is simply her theory of a possible reason that maps and diagrams should not be released.
Again, it would be great if people would let this "last known location" being somewhere other than the accident scene/spot where the dog traced MM die, as it simply isn't an issue.

Reiterating, MM's last known location was the accident site near the Weathered Barn.

Bumping for Maura wrote:

Could Maura conceivably have been passing through Exeter, NH, and later crossing the NH/ME state line into Oxford County in SW Maine, either by way of hitch-hiking or by motorcoach?

That doesn't make any sense to me. Look at a map - Exeter is in far southern NH, far away from where her car was found. MM wouldn't travel south only to travel north again. Perhaps she knew somebody in Exeter?

Oxford County is directly east of the White Mountains - Highway 112, where MM's car was found, connects in Conway, NH, with Highway 113 which goes into Oxford County. Also, the ski resorts in Bethel, ME are in Oxford County. Since she was looking into ski resorts in VT, perhaps they looked there too, who knows.

Maybe local LE asked for outside assistance or expertise and that is why Exeter was summond.

Orko Kringer wrote:

The fact maura's mother died on the very same day her daughter was born (five years later) speaks volumes to me anyway in discrediting the theroy that maura ran away to start a new life or the theory that her parents were helping her cover up a new start somewhere.

I agree with you. There is no way she ran away to start a new life. The reason I think this is because:

She packed up her dorm. If you want people to think you vanished make it look like you were living life normally, by her packing it makes people think she was going to move.

I think her father really misses her, and really loves her. She would have to be a very different person than what we are lead to believe to leave family like that behind.

If she left and told her family I don't think they would ask for so much attention. If she ran away out of state why ask for the FBI to get involved? I don't think people would want to play a game with the FBI.

Why go on national TV?

If you knew your daughter ran away but you were making up stories about dogs going "bonkers", and leaving suspicion to the tenants of the A Frame house you could have a problem.

All people who spent their time helping search for you would be pissed.

She couldn't handle small cc fraud without being caught. In the computer age without any cash, or money how can we believe she can just remain hidden, and create a new identity.

Running away to create a new identity would take a lot of effort, and you would have to have the frame of mind for it. Going out buying alchol, and drinking and driving during the big escape would not show me that she was up to the task.

These are my reasons why I think she didn't plan a run away.