Maura Murray

Orko Kringer wrote:

<quoted text>
This means absolutely nothing.
according to these guidelines, maura's case fits because it is unsolved.
I think that is pretty obvious some eight years later.
Because there has not been a body recovery, the case can't be classified as anything other than unsolved.

Okay... let me try this again. Lifted directly from the New Hampshire Cold Case unit website (I added the CAPS to highlight the key phrase):

"On July 29, 2009, Governor John Lynch signed into law HB 690, establishing for the first time in the state's history a Cold Case Unit assigned TO WORK EXCLUSIVELY ON UNSOLVED MURDER CASES."

Jenkins wrote:

The major crimes unit had people on scene on the 11th so there clearly must have been some sort of Indication that foul play could have been involved.
Major crimes does not investigate DUI's

caldonian record
FOUR MONTHS afte maura went missing

They know that two days before the accident, she crashed her father's new car into guardrails along a road in Hanson, Mass., and that by the morning of Feb. 9, she had packed up all her belongings in boxes, left a note for her boyfriend; went on the Internet to look up driving directions to Burlington, Vt.; withdrew most of her money from her bank account and sent an e-mail to her work supervisor and a professor saying she would be absent from school for a week due to a death in the family, but, Scarinza said, there was no death in her family.

"The next certainty is the accident, and what happened after that is unknown," he said.------THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT FOUL PLAY WAS A FACTOR, Lt. Scariza said.

Orko Kringer wrote:

<quoted text>
This means absolutely nothing.
according to these guidelines, maura's case fits because it is unsolved.
I think that is pretty obvious some eight years later.
Because there has not been a body recovery, the case can't be classified as anything other than unsolved.

How can that mean absolutely nothing?
The fact that Maura is listed on the ccu list actually means quite a lot; it means that LE believes that Maura was murdered.
They specifically state that they only investigate missing persons where a murder is believed to have taken place.
That means that if they believed that she was a suicide and they just can't find her body she would not be on that list.
They don't include suicides on the ccu list. The ccu has extremely limited resources, they are not going to waste their time lookin into a case that they believe is simply a suicide, not gonna happen.

It is fairly obvious to anyone who looks at this case objectively that LE believes maura was murdered. I don't see how anybody could reach any other conclusion.

Jenkins wrote:

<quoted text>
How can that mean absolutely nothing?
The fact that Maura is listed on the ccu list actually means quite a lot; it means that LE believes that Maura was murdered.
They specifically state that they only investigate missing persons where a murder is believed to have taken place.
That means that if they believed that she was a suicide and they just can't find her body she would not be on that list.
They don't include suicides on the ccu list. The ccu has extremely limited resources, they are not going to waste their time lookin into a case that they believe is simply a suicide, not gonna happen.
It is fairly obvious to anyone who looks at this case objectively that LE believes maura was murdered. I don't see how anybody could reach any other conclusion.

It's a dog and pony show, a dressing.

Police from early on have been taking heat for not investigating maura's case more seriously (because they don't believe a crime took place).

Because they don't have a body, they have to take steps to give the appearance that they are open for everything and any scenario.

It does not mean anything (nor do those baloney court cases in which they sent someone who had no idea what the case was about to represent them) to keep fred from getting information.

They keep fred out of the loop because they don't trust him plain and simple.

And they know fred and family would use what the police don't have (If fred was to see the actual investigation) to turn against them and end up in a lawsuit.

When a body is discovered, the police will be quick to react and release info. Until then, they are just protecting their own behinds.

Orko Kringer wrote:

<quoted text>
This means absolutely nothing.
according to these guidelines, maura's case fits because it is unsolved.
I think that is pretty obvious some eight years later.
Because there has not been a body recovery, the case can't be classified as anything other than unsolved.

I think your missing the point, Maura's case does not fit in these guidelines just because her body hasn't been found.
There's one other major criteria that's needed in order for it to be taken up by the ccu, that a murder is suspected to have taken place.

They do not put a missing person on that list just because they never were found. In fact, if they believed a suicide is what happened then Maura would not be on that list.
Her inclusion on the ccu means that LE believes that Maura was most likely murdered.
The ccu does not have the resources to investigate cases where suicide is believed.

Jenkins wrote:

<quoted text>
I think your missing the point, Maura's case does not fit in these guidelines just because her body hasn't been found.
There's one other major criteria that's needed in order for it to be taken up by the ccu, that a murder is suspected to have taken place.
They do not put a missing person on that list just because they never were found. In fact, if they believed a suicide is what happened then Maura would not be on that list.
Her inclusion on the ccu means that LE believes that Maura was most likely murdered.
The ccu does not have the resources to investigate cases where suicide is believed.

Jenkins, police can believe someone killed themselves, but if they have no body and they DO NOTHING for years and it turns out they were wrong and the person was murdered, they would be in a whole world of trouble.

Orko Kringer wrote:

<quoted text>
Jenkins, police can believe someone killed themselves, but if they have no body and they DO NOTHING for years and it turns out they were wrong and the person was murdered, they would be in a whole world of trouble.

Not really if they have good reason to believe so. If they had some sort of compelling reason to believe she killed herself then why Would they need to do an investigation at all?
If they had a compelling reason to think suicide then they shouldn't be conducting a murder investigation. Years later if it turns out she actually got murdered how could they possibly be In a world of trouble? What does that even really mean? They're gonna get fired? How are they going to be in a world of trouble?
If LE is acting in good faith and had some compelling reason to think she killed herself then they really can't get in any trouble for not investigating for murder.

What are you saying that LE is supposed to put on an act? Pretend to investigate for murder when everything they had pointed towards suicide?

On the other side of the coin you have the ccu; the unit that is only supposed to investigate missing persons if they believe that the person was murdered. Well wouldn't they look really really stupid if it turns out she killed herself? Wouldn't that call into question the whole ccu and their investigative skills?

If LE actually believed she killed herself then they're really putting on a good act.
Are you saying that LE is supposed to lie to the public and put on acts?

If they really thought she killed herself there would be no need for this whole act, no need for privacy and all that. They can release their findings; say we think she killed herself and here is why we think that.
I would think that the only thing that LE can truly get into a world of trouble over is lying to the public and misusing funds that are allocated fr specific purposes, like investigating cold cases.

If LE is acting in good faith, truly believe she committed suicide, and have good reasons to think so then how could they possibly be in a world of trouble if she came up murdered?

I just can't see how anybody can think that LE truly thinks she killed herself. If they had good reason to think so they would have no reason to keep that hidden. The only thing they really can get in trouble for is Lying to the public. A cop can't really get into trouble if his findings turn out to be wrong, can they? Unless they are lying about twir findings I don't see how they can really be in any trouble at all

Orko so what else besides the alleged squaw walk comment do you have that indicates Fred introduced the suicide theory first?
You said that you had "plenty", so what else do you got?

Orko Kringer wrote:

<quoted text>
It's a dog and pony show, a dressing.
Police from early on have been taking heat for not investigating maura's case more seriously (because they don't believe a crime took place).
Because they don't have a body, they have to take steps to give the appearance that they are open for everything and any scenario.
It does not mean anything (nor do those baloney court cases in which they sent someone who had no idea what the case was about to represent them) to keep fred from getting information.
They keep fred out of the loop because they don't trust him plain and simple.
And they know fred and family would use what the police don't have (If fred was to see the actual investigation) to turn against them and end up in a lawsuit.
When a body is discovered, the police will be quick to react and release info. Until then, they are just protecting their own behinds.

I have to agree with Orko here. In the beginning LE did not believe Mauras disappearence had anything to do with foul play. I and other family members believe that Maura met up with foul play the night she disappeared.LE was not open for every scenerio. They were open for suicide.runaway,or she sucumbed to the elements.

Jenkins wrote:

<quoted text>
Very interesting post right there.
What I was trying to say Is this: At some point between 7:30 on the 9th and the mornin of the 11th somebody in LE mus have thought that there was a distinct possibility foul play was involved in this case.
During the winter in NH people crash cars all the time an leave them on the side of the road, this is a daily occurrence in the north country.
If LE thought that this was simply another car that got abandoned after a a crash, or a DUI, nobody from major crimes would have been there on the 11th
Major crimes does not investigate car crashes, they don't investigate dui's either. They only investigate major crimes such as murder, kidnappings, etc.

State police became involved on Feb. 11th. I dont have the date as to when the Major crimes unit became involved.

Here you go Jenkins.

Grafton County Sheriff’s Office 911 Dispatch log
Feb 10, 2004

“Fred Murray calling back and said that officer has not gotten back to him. Told him (Fred Murray) that he (officer) had the message but sure he would be calling (Fred back).(Fred) stated it is urgent that officer calls him. He (Fred) has some very important information to give him.”

James Renner who interviewed the head of the maura murray case and now retired Lt. Scarinza in either late 2011 or early 2012

I got the call at 6 a.m. on Wednesday morning from the chief of police in Haverhill," recalls Scarinza.

"They had a car accident. But they didn't find a driver. At first, if didn't seem like an unusual occurrence. If you've had too much to drink and then have an accident, you don't want to wait around for law enforcement. We see similar incidents all the time. But you expect a call eventually. The driver calling in, looking for their car. That didn't happen."

The car Maura was driving at the time was registered to her father, Fred. Haverhill P.D. tried to contact him early on Tuesday, but only got the answering machine.

In the meantime, the police obtained a search warrant to open the car and examine the contents. Inside they found a box of wine, a book about the dangers of the White Mountains (Not Without Peril), and a receipt from a liquor store.

"She had purchased Kahlua, wine, and a six pack of Seagrams. The box had splashed all over the car. The bottle of kahlua was not there."

Around mid-afternoon Tuesday, Fred Murray called Haverhill P.D.

"What I was told was that the first thing out of Fred's mouth was,'She's gone to the North Country to commit suicide, to go off and die like an old squaw."

"Then, the scenario changed," says Scarinza. "Now we have a missing girl."

Jenkins wrote:

<quoted text>

What I was trying to say Is this: At some point between 7:30 on the 9th and the mornin of the 11th somebody in LE mus have thought that there was a distinct possibility foul play was involved in this case.
During the winter in NH people crash cars all the time an leave them on the side of the road, this is a daily occurrence in the north country.

Like Ted Kennedy and Mary Jo Kopechne on Martha's Vineyard?

Orko Kringer wrote:

Here you go Jenkins.
Grafton County Sheriff’s Office 911 Dispatch log
Feb 10, 2004
“Fred Murray calling back and said that officer has not gotten back to him. Told him (Fred Murray) that he (officer) had the message but sure he would be calling (Fred back).(Fred) stated it is urgent that officer calls him. He (Fred) has some very important information to give him.”
James Renner who interviewed the head of the maura murray case and now retired Lt. Scarinza in either late 2011 or early 2012
I got the call at 6 a.m. on Wednesday morning from the chief of police in Haverhill," recalls Scarinza.
"They had a car accident. But they didn't find a driver. At first, if didn't seem like an unusual occurrence. If you've had too much to drink and then have an accident, you don't want to wait around for law enforcement. We see similar incidents all the time. But you expect a call eventually. The driver calling in, looking for their car. That didn't happen."
The car Maura was driving at the time was registered to her father, Fred. Haverhill P.D. tried to contact him early on Tuesday, but only got the answering machine.
In the meantime, the police obtained a search warrant to open the car and examine the contents. Inside they found a box of wine, a book about the dangers of the White Mountains (Not Without Peril), and a receipt from a liquor store.
"She had purchased Kahlua, wine, and a six pack of Seagrams. The box had splashed all over the car. The bottle of kahlua was not there."
Around mid-afternoon Tuesday, Fred Murray called Haverhill P.D.
"What I was told was that the first thing out of Fred's mouth was,'She's gone to the North Country to commit suicide, to go off and die like an old squaw."
"Then, the scenario changed," says Scarinza. "Now we have a missing girl."

Interesting that Lt. Scarinza gets a call at 6am Wednesday morning Feb.11th and knows nothing about the accident.His own officer Monahan had arrived on the scene the night of Feb.9th. Is there no communication between the LT and his officers?

coeur de lion wrote:

<quoted text>
Like Ted Kennedy and Mary Jo Kopechne on Martha's Vineyard?

Lol, what?

Mary Jo was their only daughter ....
It was a political mess with sorrow.

A young woman, Mary Jo Kopechne, took a ride at the wrong time from the wrong person to the wrong place. No prosecution.

citigirl wrote:

<quoted text>Interesting that Lt. Scarinza gets a call at 6am Wednesday morning Feb.11th and knows nothing about the accident.His own officer Monahan had arrived on the scene the night of Feb.9th. Is there no communication between the LT and his officers?

Although, Monahan was off duty when he went by the accident scene on Feb 9th. That's why he made no report, and probably why Scarinza didn't hear anything from Monahan about it. On the 9th, it was still just a possible DUI incident.

Jenkins wrote:

The major crimes unit had people on scene on the 11th so there clearly must have been some sort of Indication that foul play could have been involved.
Major crimes does not investigate DUI's

This is incorrect, for perhaps the hundredth time. I wonder if you will ever stop making patently false statements? My guess is never.

Major Crimes does not generally investigate DWI's, however they definitely investigate missing persons, no matter the reason that person is missing. Sometimes it is foul play, sometimes not.

So for you to continually state that LE suspected 'foul play' because MC went to the scene is simply not true. I have also told you many times this case was a Troop F case from the beginning and for many years afterwards. That a Detective assigned to Major Crimes happened to live in the area and routinely worked out of Troop F does not make it a MC case. It never was.

citigirl wrote:

<quoted text>I have to agree with Orko here. In the beginning LE did not believe Mauras disappearence had anything to do with foul play. I and other family members believe that Maura met up with foul play the night she disappeared.LE was not open for every scenerio. They were open for suicide.runaway,or she sucumbed to the elements.

Citigirl - for what reason did you and other family memembers believe MM met foul play. FM (who saw and spoke to her last) believes she took her own life which is on the complete other end of the spectrum.

When was the last time you spoke to MM?

Advocate wrote:

<quoted text>
Although, Monahan was off duty when he went by the accident scene on Feb 9th. That's why he made no report, and probably why Scarinza didn't hear anything from Monahan about it. On the 9th, it was still just a possible DUI incident.

JM was seen patroling the streets right near where RO was walking from the store to her home. Bunga hill RD? He slowed down and said "oh, it's you",(to RO-because he knew her). This was well after RO said she saw police and the red truck drive by the store. So if JM was at the scene, he backtracked, off the record to help find Maura, I would think. His statement implys he was looking for someone on foot.

Speaking of someone on foot. I have read two articles that Maura was seen walking away from her car. I noted that on the Montel show, MR Williams referred to that Maura was seen by her car AND seen walking AWAY from her car. Fred brushed right over that comment by saying that as a matter of fact the first callers to 911 put her at the car 1-2 minutes before police came.

So who saw her walk away?