Maura Murray

Jenkins wrote:

Hey orko- there's something I'm not understanding about your comment on the the family's opinion of the investigation.
If the family really thought she committed suicide then how critical of the investigation can they really be? Critical of a suicide investigation?

have been found on a hiking trail or top of a mt somewhere?
Do you think she decided to just randomly walk straight into the woods or something? Even if she did that how far do you really think she could have gotten? There was 2'+ snow in the lowlands, much more as you get into higher elevations; how far do you really think she could've walked through that wearing jeans and tennis shoes? Her shoes and the bottom of her jeans would have been packed with snow after about 5 steps. If she left umass with that intention wouldn't she have at least packed some boots so she could maybe walk into the woods with all that snow? Remember that this a youn girl who considered it a challenge to climb these mts in the summer, why would she now think he can suddenly climb the same mts in the dead of winter wearing only jeans and tennis shoes? How does that make any sense?
I'm sorry but if you look at this objectively I don't see how you can reach any other conclusion then at this point the suicide theory has very little merit. If she killed herself WHERE THE HELL IS HER BODY?!?!?

Let me ask you something Jenkins.
Do you really think that police had a working theory for what happened to maura when fred and family began showing up that wednesday morning to the accident location?
Up until fred showed up, the police had an abandoned car and a missing driver with evidence of alcohol consumption having taken place. Outside of a quick search done the night of the accident to make sure they didn't have someone injured laying in a ditch up the road or hiding out in the nearby vincinity to avoid a DUI charge, there was no investigation, there was no need for an investigation, they had the info they needed as to who was responsible for the wreck.
They wouldn't have told fred first thing, we think your daughter is suicidal, but we decided to wait until you arrived before we did any kind of investigating to see if we can find her.
Police first talked about maura being depressed and possibly suicidal AFFTER they were briefed by her father. It didn't (and wouldn't logically) happen the other way. Police don't know a thing about maura and her trials and tribulations. They know they have a registered abandoned wrecked car that has been traced back to Fred Murray and through talking to witnesses and calling family, they know the driver was maura.
Police did not dictate to fred that they think she was abducted or that they think she was suicidal. They had to learn from fred that they were up against a lot more than someone leaving the scene of a minor accident.

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
You really still don't get the mindset of these people who run from crashes.
Bill

Why do you think she ran from the crash?

Maybe you could educate me a little bit and describe what you think the mindset of these "people that run from crashes is"?

If she was so worried about the cops wouldn't she have just grabbed her things and gotten the hell out of there? She could have done that in under a minute, but instead she chose to sit there in the car in the side of the road, with her door wide open for a few minutes.
She didn't just run from the car as soon as sbd left, she was there for several minutes.
I'm sorry but that does not sound like someone who is overly concerned with avoiding police.

Orko Kringer wrote:

<quoted text>
Let me ask you something Jenkins.
Do you really think that police had a working theory for what happened to maura when fred and family began showing up that wednesday morning to the accident location?
Up until fred showed up, the police had an abandoned car and a missing driver with evidence of alcohol consumption having taken place. Outside of a quick search done the night of the accident to make sure they didn't have someone injured laying in a ditch up the road or hiding out in the nearby vincinity to avoid a DUI charge, there was no investigation, there was no need for an investigation, they had the info they needed as to who was responsible for the wreck.
They wouldn't have told fred first thing, we think your daughter is suicidal, but we decided to wait until you arrived before we did any kind of investigating to see if we can find her.
Police first talked about maura being depressed and possibly suicidal AFFTER they were briefed by her father. It didn't (and wouldn't logically) happen the other way. Police don't know a thing about maura and her trials and tribulations. They know they have a registered abandoned wrecked car that has been traced back to Fred Murray and through talking to witnesses and calling family, they know the driver was maura.
Police did not dictate to fred that they think she was abducted or that they think she was suicidal. They had to learn from fred that they were up against a lot more than someone leaving the scene of a minor accident.

Actually there was an initial investigation performed by smith. He was on scene for alsmot 2 hrs and a lot of that time was spent talking to witnesses. This is not something that is usually done after a minor accident that the driver left. These things happen all the time in the north country and it is extremely rare for a cop to stay on scene for 2hrs interviewing witnesses. There must have been something telling him this wasn't a normal accident.

I still think that smith thought there was something more to it that night then just a simple one car accident, it's the only thing that explains his actions IMO. Something happened between that night and wed morning that caused him to feel the need to lie to the family when they arrived.
I feel that he initially thought there was foul play involved but his superiors told him to play down that angle. The last thing the HPD was gonna do was say that they thought she was abducted and that they had no idea who did it.

I agree with what your saying about Fred being the one who must have mentioned her being depressed first rather than police. But he and the family have said since the beginning that le blew that way out of proportion. If you look at early reports le either made her sound like a stupid drunk college girl, or suicidal. They were playing up those angles to cover their asses plain and simple. At the beginning the family was very discouraged with how le portrayed Maura, this may have played a part in their decision to make her look like the perfect "all-American" girl, to counter what was being said about her.
It seems like the main offender, so to speak, was the HPD.

A couple days ago, I used Google Maps -- Street View -- to "walk" along Rt 112 from the Weathered Barn corner eastward, past the intersection with BHR, etc. I'm not sure how far I went in actual distance, but far enough to pass 3 or 4 cabins that were sitting just a little off the road. I think we have been told that there aren't any homes out that way for quite a distance but there are seasonal cabins, which is what I took these to be.

So I am wondering if Maura might have gone some distance walking on Rt 112 east, and then taken shelter for the night in one of these cabins. She would have had to break in, maybe remove a screen, jimmy a window. Would anyone have known their cabin had been broken into until later in the spring? If some weeks or months passed before someone saw their cabin had been broken into, how likely would it be that anyone would connect this to Maura's disappearance on Feb 9th?

It would be interesting to know if anyone in that area reported a cabin break-in to LE at some point after Feb 9th.

.

Very interesting post advocate, I'd be very interested in that as well. It'd b possible that she could've broken in without even breaking anything that would be so bad it would require a police report.

But if someone with a seasonal cabin did have a break in it would be extremely unlikely that they would associate that with MM, especially If they were from a different state.
The fact of the matter is that even most people in nh have never even heard of this case. I know everyone on here seems to think the whole world knows about it but that's just not true. I've mentioned this case to people I know/met many times over the years and nobody has ever heard of it, literally not one person I've mentioned it to ever heard of it, which I find crazy. Including an old roommate of mine who actually grew up in woodsville! he was absolutely shocked to learn a girl went missing there.
Many people don't watch the news every day or even ever, most of them never heard of Maura..
I always thought that the family should've plastered nh with missing persons posters at different times over the years. It's probably getting too late, 8.5 years later but maybe this winter aroun the 9th anniversary it might be a good idea to put up missing posters everywhere, every gas station, supermarket, restaurant and bar in the area. Just one person could break the stalemate this case has become...

Something I find crazy: besides the one on the tree I have NEVER seen a missing poster for MM. I always found that odd. Are they always taken down or did the family never put them up? I know, well i think, they put up a lot right at the beginning but why not keep them up?

Somebody somewhere very well might know something or saw something that night but has no idea that she is even missing. We know that several cars passed the scene that we have never heard from. It is very possible they have a piece of vital information and don't even know it; they've never heard of Maura or have any idea that she is missing.

Since CS evidently noted the rag in the tailpipe, that alone may have been enough to concern him a little more than just taking the crash as evidence of a DUI. The rag wouldn't have been evidence of anything in particular, I guess, to cause CS or any other responders to think this or think that specifically, but it probably raised some questions that caused them to have a bit more than ordinary interest in this particular accident.

Jenkins wrote:

...Are they always taken down or did the family never put them up? I know, well i think, they put up a lot right at the beginning but why not keep them up?
Somebody somewhere very well might know something or saw something that night but has no idea that she is even missing. We know that several cars passed the scene that we have never heard from. It is very possible they have a piece of vital information and don't even know it; they've never heard of Maura or have any idea that she is missing.

True that someone might recall something even this many years later. If it were me, I'd run a full page ad in each of the local papers in that area of NH with a photo of Maura. Full page ads aren't per se cheap, but maybe not so bad when it's local papers, and they do get attention.

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
Wow. Another simple answer if you knew the area. The White Mountain National Forest is larger than the state of Rhode Island with very few roads and trails. It's more of a miracle that they find as many people as they do. Very big forest, very tiny people in comparison.
Bill

I know the area extremely well. I've lived there permanently for over a decade and hiked/biked it all the time. I have also been visiting and hiking in the white mts for over 25 years, so I know the area.

The forest is huge up there but many many areas can be completely eliminated simply due to their inaccessibility during winter. Combine that with the fact that she was wearing tennis shoes and jeans and left all her gloves in the car and it starts to limit how far she really could have gone. It's not like she literally could be anywhere in the white mt national forest.

The point I was really tryin to make to orko was in regards to if she committed suicide. His theory was that she wanted to go to a favorite hiking spot to kill herself, if that was the case wouldn't her body have been found in top of a mt or on a hiking trail? It makes no sense that she would try to hide her body, have you ever heard of a case where a suicide victim hid their body?
So if she wasn't found along a trail somewhere that leaves her trouncing randomly into the woods somewhere, which just makes no sense..
If she committed suicide it makes no sense her body hasn't been found, IMO. Still doesn't prove anything, it just makes suicide less likely of an option in my eyes.

I got a question for you bill: what percentage of your sar efforts are successful, by your estimate? 50%? More? Less? How many times do you go into the woods and not find the person? Never find the person? How many searches have you personally participated in where the subject was never recovered? I'm just wondering because you make it sound like its fairly common for the person to never be found by sar efforts.

In another case in Iowa, I believe, where there are 2 kids missing the cops apparently have the exact opposite opinion than you do. They actually said in the media that they believe foul play must have occurred because they can't find the kids' bodies in the woods or nearby lake. I was shocked when I read that but they outright said that since they couldnt find their body's in te woods and they couldn't find them in the lake that it only leaves one option, that they were abducted.
Quite a different opinion than you hold.
Apparently not everybody in le holds the view that you do; that if you don't find a body it means absolutely nothing.

Advocate wrote:

Since CS evidently noted the rag in the tailpipe, that alone may have been enough to concern him a little more than just taking the crash as evidence of a DUI. The rag wouldn't have been evidence of anything in particular, I guess, to cause CS or any other responders to think this or think that specifically, but it probably raised some questions that caused them to have a bit more than ordinary interest in this particular accident.

Good point advocate, that rag being in her muffler must have raised a few questions in smith's mind.
But my question is: What caused smith to look in the muffler in the first place? That is highly unusual; for a cop to get down on the ground and look into a muffler. The rag was not hanging out either, it was described as being stuffed "way up there"; that means he must have gotten on his hands and knees to look in the muffler, there must have been a pretty compelling reason to do so. This is one of the things that makes me think he thought foul play was a possibility that night right from the start
.
We have the report that she didn't spin out after the curve as originally reported but rather clipped the snowbank on the inside of the curve, as If she lost power and was tryin to regain control when she hit the snowbank, causing her to spin around. Well if the ems guy noticed this then I'm sure smith did as well, might he have been looking for something that could have stalled out the car? He mentioned the rag to the wman's so that means that literally within the first few mins on scene he was checking the tailpipe. He clearly wasn't thinking this was a normal crash, well i guess it's impossible to know exactly what he thought but his actions sure do suggest he thought there was more to it then just a minor accident.
I've wondered if maybe he thought the wine stains were inductive of a struggle inside the car. The box of wine was found in the backseat, there are no reports of it being broken. It is extremely difficult to make a box of wine burst, almost impossible; and if it had it wouldn't have just splashed the car, there would literally be a puddle of wine in the car or the car would be completely covered in wine. The wine is described being splashed on the ceiling and the door. Logic would dictate that If it was spilled during the crash it would have been thrown in one direction, not multiple. Ive wondered if that was the first thing that smith saw that made him think maybe there was a struggle. Then he notices that it looks like the car might have lost lower before the curve and that made him think to look to see if someone may have possibly intentionally stalled the car, and what do you know, there's a rag stuffed deep in the tailpipe....
Looking up the muffler of a car is not something that is normally done after an accident by any stretch of the imagination, there had to be something strange about this crash to make smith make this highly unusual action, what was it? It's very possible it wasn't the wine stain but rather something we don't know about..but it had to be something. Cops don't look up mufflers of crashed cars, there had to be something that made him feel the need to get on his hands and knees in the dirty snow on the side of the road to look up Maura's muffler.

The rag and discovery of the rag is another thing that indicates smith thought there was something more to this than just a simple accident. The rag is very well what inspired him to stay on scene for 2hrs and go talk to potential witnesses. Remember, cops dont stay on the scene of simple one car accidents for 2 hrs talking to witnesses. If he truly thought that this was a simple one car accident that the driver just left there would be absolutely no need for that and no purpose for it. You only need witnesses for major accidents where there is a lot of property damaged. There was no property damage and no other cars involved. IMO the only thing that adequately explains all of his actions is if he thought there could have been foul play. That doesnt necessarily mean that he knew for a fact or even thought there was definitely foul play, but it sure does look like he thought it to be a distinct possibility.
Then that once again brings up the question of why did he lie to the family when they arrived? Was her personally embarrassed or did his superior tell him to lie? I think that someone told him to. Think about it, shouldn't he be fired when the pd learns that he's lying to the family of a missing girl? Unless he was following the orders of one if his bosses I would think that he would be in some trouble for doing that. The fact that he did lie shows that someone up above him either told him to lie, made him feel like he should, or gave him permission to. I've always wondered why it wasn't considered a big deal in the slightest bit that he lied to her family.

I think it is permissible for LE to lie to members of the public under various circumstances, such as when conducting an investigation, to observe how people respond, etc. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Jenkins wrote:

Very interesting post advocate, I'd be very interested in that as well. It'd b possible that she could've broken in without even breaking anything that would be so bad it would require a police report.
But if someone with a seasonal cabin did have a break in it would be extremely unlikely that they would associate that with MM, especially If they were from a different state.
The fact of the matter is that even most people in nh have never even heard of this case. I know everyone on here seems to think the whole world knows about it but that's just not true. I've mentioned this case to people I know/met many times over the years and nobody has ever heard of it, literally not one person I've mentioned it to ever heard of it, which I find crazy. Including an old roommate of mine who actually grew up in woodsville! he was absolutely shocked to learn a girl went missing there.
Many people don't watch the news every day or even ever, most of them never heard of Maura..
I always thought that the family should've plastered nh with missing persons posters at different times over the years. It's probably getting too late, 8.5 years later but maybe this winter aroun the 9th anniversary it might be a good idea to put up missing posters everywhere, every gas station, supermarket, restaurant and bar in the area. Just one person could break the stalemate this case has become...
Something I find crazy: besides the one on the tree I have NEVER seen a missing poster for MM. I always found that odd. Are they always taken down or did the family never put them up? I know, well i think, they put up a lot right at the beginning but why not keep them up?
Somebody somewhere very well might know something or saw something that night but has no idea that she is even missing. We know that several cars passed the scene that we have never heard from. It is very possible they have a piece of vital information and don't even know it; they've never heard of Maura or have any idea that she is missing.

I was told by someone that used to put up posters everywhere that they would be torn down.

Jenkins wrote:

The rag and discovery of the rag is another thing that indicates smith thought there was something more to this than just a simple accident. The rag is very well what inspired him to stay on scene for 2hrs and go talk to potential witnesses. Remember, cops dont stay on the scene of simple one car accidents for 2 hrs talking to witnesses. If he truly thought that this was a simple one car accident that the driver just left there would be absolutely no need for that and no purpose for it. You only need witnesses for major accidents where there is a lot of property damaged. There was no property damage and no other cars involved. IMO the only thing that adequately explains all of his actions is if he thought there could have been foul play. That doesnt necessarily mean that he knew for a fact or even thought there was definitely foul play, but it sure does look like he thought it to be a distinct possibility.
Then that once again brings up the question of why did he lie to the family when they arrived? Was her personally embarrassed or did his superior tell him to lie? I think that someone told him to. Think about it, shouldn't he be fired when the pd learns that he's lying to the family of a missing girl? Unless he was following the orders of one if his bosses I would think that he would be in some trouble for doing that. The fact that he did lie shows that someone up above him either told him to lie, made him feel like he should, or gave him permission to. I've always wondered why it wasn't considered a big deal in the slightest bit that he lied to her family.

Jenkins, I personaly don't find it odd that CS interviewd whitnesses and stayed on the scene for 2 hours for a car accident. CS clearly was looking for the girl as he thought she may have sought refuge at one of their houses. Remember also that both of these houses called in to report the accident so CS was doing his job to talk to them in order to fill out his report.

CS had to wait for other responders to come to the scene as well as he took the time to analyze the crash as well as do a drive arround to try and find her. I think his actions were more of doing his job and I wouldn't read much more into it. The rag in the tailpipe is the kicker however nobody whitnessed her just sitting in her car with the windows rolled up after she had walked to the back of her car.

citigirl wrote:

<quoted text>Why not wait at the car? Because she was abducted.

Citigirl - if she was abducted then how come the family is pleading with MM to come home, and "it can be worked out" or family making squawalk comments.

If she was abducted I would think that the video footage would be of family begging the abductor to return MM. It never happened.

Family thought MM was still in control of her actions after the car crash. If they truly thought she was locked in someones basement they wouldn't be asking for her to "come home it can all be worked out" I would think you'd be saying "please return our daughter safely to us we will give you anything you want"

Jenkins wrote:

Hey orko- there's something I'm not understanding about your comment on the the family's opinion of the investigation.
If the family really thought she committed suicide then how critical of the investigation can they really be? Critical of a suicide investigation?
While I'm sure almost every family in similar situations is critical of the investigation the Murray family has some serious legitimate gripes with this investigation.
From where I'm sitting it appears to me like the Murray family truly believes she got abducted and have some legitimate complaints about how her case was handled.

Jenkins - she was seen by a driver 4-5 miles away from the crash. If someone wants to avoid the police it isn't LE's resposibility to try to find them after a car crash.

If you truly think that family thought that she was abducted then why do there actions and words show otherwise?
- The PC was never checked to see if she had a stalker
- The car was surrendered to the auto body to be smahed and salvaged
- News video show family appealing to MM and not the abductor.

How many families in similair situations where they think foul play do this?

FrmLE wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm sorry Amy, I really can't.

Can you verify if the sighting was 4-5 miles away from the crash site?

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

<quoted text>
Can you verify if the sighting was 4-5 miles away from the crash site?

About that distance.

It is a very large area, the area where she could have gotten to on her own power in the time she had. It is very rough terrain, and it really is fairly desolate of people. It is not a huge hiking area, some hunters but not alot, few trails or paths.

The point is, if she had gone into the woods some distance away from the crash site, as it appears she did, the chances of finding her body or an article of clothing would be very slim. Think of finding a needle in a hay field.

Now, whether you wish to believe that or not it up to you, however it is a complete fact, do the math.

Her body could easily be somewhere in those woods, nearly decomposed by now, all that would be left is some fabric, bones, maybe some plastic from her phone or another item she had with her. Other than that, there wouldn't be much to even find anymore.

Just pull out a map, pin the crash site, go 10 miles (at least) in every direction on the roads, then go into the woods at least 2 to 4 miles from any point along that path.

Then you will have some idea the size of the area where she could be. Needle in a hay field.

Jenkins wrote:

<quoted text>
Why do you think she ran from the crash?
Maybe you could educate me a little bit and describe what you think the mindset of these "people that run from crashes is"?

FrmLE and I have explained this dozens of times by now. I don't suspect that explaining it to you once more will really make the difference.

You have clearly decided that you don't want to listen to what we know and have seen dozens if not hundreds of times and what is repeated in every state in this country daily.

Bill

This is from a post earlier. Still relevant.

Here is the link to the woman who went missing in Waterville Valley.
http://www.wildnh.com/Newsroom/News_2010/News ...

This was a 85 year old woman who walked away from her home in Waterville Valley. She went missing on September 7, 2010. She was found October 28th, a month and half later. She was about 3 miles from where she went missing in an area that had been searched multiple times.

For comparison, here are a few contrasts between poor Mrs. Upton and Maura Murray.

Upton was 85 years old and much less able bodied than Maura Murray who was a track star and able runner.

Upton was found 3 miles from point where she went missing. Searchers were looking for Upton within hours of when she went missing. No searches were made for Maura for at least 48 hours, if I recall.

The search for Mrs. Upton was MASSIVE, to put it mildly. Here is a link where over 150 searchers were walking shoulder to shoulder in the area she went missing. http://www.wmur.com/r/24970992/detail.html

MANCHESTER, N.H.-- A team of 150 people gathered Saturday to search for a Waterville Valley woman missing since last Tuesday.
The New Hampshire Fish and Game Department said it is utilizing everything from horses to helicopters in their search for 85-year-old Beth Upton. Upton was last seen going for a walk in a heavily wooded area, according to her family.
Teams are covering a mile-and-a-half area by walking shoulder to shoulder. A K9 team was expected to join the search Saturday night.

The area where Mrs. Upton went missing was significantly smaller than the possible area where Maura could have gone. If anyone knows Waterville Valley, it really is a bowl shaped valley and most of those Mountains are over 2500 ft or more...

For comparison,

the area where Mrs. Upton went missing was much smaller,

much less confined than where Maura went missing due to the Valley geography,

Upton was an 85 yr old woman and much less capable of traveling overland than Maura,

Upton was searched for within hours of when she went missing whereas Maura was not even reported missing for a day or so,

The search for Upton was absolutely massive and continuous from within hours of when she went missing whereas the searches for Maura have been much smaller,

Upton was found about a mile and half as the crow flies, or 3 miles by foot, of where she went missing. Maura could have gone 3 miles in less than 60 minutes if she wanted to.

The terrain in Waterville is much steeper than where Maura went missing,

And despite all this, the massive search day and night, Mrs. Upton's body was not found until almost a month and half later and was found almost by accident...

So given that, how can anyone say that if Maura went into the woods and succumbed to the elements that she would have been found by now?????