Maura Murray

WTH-the-original wrote:

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Absolutely spoken like someone who has never been out at night, trying to stay just "50 feet" away from something like a winding road while on the move. Try it sometime. Try not getting close enough to a road at night to be seen, and then not screwing up and getting too far away so that you don't get lost. Do it with a friend that knows what he is doing. We wouldn't want to loose you also.
That is just one of the ways she might have perished. It could also have been intentional. Why are you convinced that if she wanted to commit suicide she would want to be found? Or if she wanted to be found, she totally underestimated the ability to find her body?
Bill

Lol, yea bill I've never been out at night.
I agree that following a winding road at night isn't the easiest thing in the world to do but why the hell would she be trying to do that?
Your missing my point here, do you think I was trying to say that she would've walked 10' into the woods and then followed the rd? Why would anybody ever do something like that?
What i was Saying was that she didn't have to walk miles straight into the woods to be hidden, like you and frmLE are making out as some sort of requirement.
If all she was trying to do was elude police she could have just walked 10' into the woods and stayed in one place.
What could possibly be the purpose of walking deep into the woods?
If she was trying to follow the road why would she walk into the woods and then walk through 2'+ of snow? That is the absolute last thing anyone would do, especially considering what she was wearing. If she wanted to follow the rd all she had to do was walk in the rd and look out for headlights, there aren't very many cars on that road an it's very dark..she could see the headlights from pretty far away, more than enough time to jump over the snowbank real quick and have nobody see her.
The point I'm trying to make here is that she absolutely did not have to walk into the woods in order to elude the cops. All she had to be was on the other side of the snowbank, about 10' in the woods and it would be pretty much impossible to be seen. If she was trying to get somewhere pretty much the last thing she would do would be to walk through the snow in the woods and follow the rd.
Close enough to not be seen? That's like 10 feet.
If she was ginna kill herself why would she not want to be found? I'll ask again: have you ever heard of a suicide case where the person was trying to hide their body? The vast majority of suicides happen in the comfort of the person's home or somewhere that they feel comfortable. It is extremely rare for a suicide to make attempts to not be found.
I agree with your point that maybe she underestimated the ability to find her body but once again something about this whole scenario doesn't make sense, if she was planning suicide then she must have brought something else with her that we don't know about to kill herself with, because it sure wasn't the alcohol. According to scarinza she only brought the kahlua when she left the car. That would mean that she would have had to have had a knife, a gun, a bottle of OxyContin, something to kill herself with. Or I guess she could have planned on sitting there sober and just freezing to death but why torture herself? Most suicides want it as quick and painless as possible, not hours of torture while she slowly freezes to death. I suppose It doesn't really matter what she Had, but once again, why walk deep into the woods to do it? She could walk 10' in and kill herself just the same as 2 miles in.
Nobody has put forth anything even resembling a logical reason as to why she would walk deep into the woods. Again, it defies all reason and logic that she would do that, especially dressed like she was.

I believe it is extremely unlikely that she simply got lost in the woods, that just makes absolutely no sense. It also makes no sense to say that she wanted to hide her own body.
The thing that makes the most sense in this whole thing is that she got picked up by someone. That doesn't mean they killed her, but that is clearly the most likely of all possible scenarios. Scarinza seems to agree with that as well.

Jenkins wrote:

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You make a pretty good point there about him wanting to see if she took refuge in a nearby house, that makes sense. But how long does that really take? To go knock on someone's door and ask if she was there would take like a few mins max. He must have wanted a little more in depth information.
remember that he was under no obligation to go talk to anyone just because they called 911. If the cops had to talk to every person who calls 911 to report a car accident that would be a serious strain on resources, and it's unnecessary.
This was a one car accident where there was no property damaged and no major injuries. Getting in depth statements from witnesses is completely unnecessary, especially when you consider the fact that all the witnesses only witnessed what happened AFTER the accident, to my knowledge there was no one who actually witnessed the crash while it happened. Theoretically none of them had any information that would be useful for him in filling out his report, that info had to be taken from the physical evidence of the crash; damage to the car, snowbanks, etc... if you think about it he didn't need to talk to them at all to fill out his report.
According to everything I've read on the matter the other first responders were on the scene very quickly and he only drove around looking for her for about 15min, please correct me if I'm wrong here. So none of that made it take 2hrs.
But really how long does all this really take? 45mins? An hour? 2 hours is a really long time for a cop to stay on the scene of something that is really just a simple one car accident.
Remember that pretty much everyone agrees that accidents like this happen ALL THE TIME in nh during the winter. A car slides off the rd and the driver leaves the scene rather than wait for the cops.
The cops do NOT stay on the scene of all these accidents for 2hrs, that is not normal. There is just no need; you take a quick look around to make sure the driver isn't hurt nearby and you call a tow truck, maybe talk to a witness quickly if there is one available. I would say that generally it is unusual for a cop to stay on the scene of a one car accident for longer than an hour.
It is clear that smith didn't treat this like a normal one car accident, the same kind that happens every day in nh. He must have thought there was something different about this wreck that required so much attention. How different he really thought it was is unclear. None of his actions are a definite indication that he thought foul play but it sure does look like he thought that might be a possibility. Bottoms line: he clearly did not treat this like a normal one car accident where the driver simply slid off the road.

Just for full clarity.

Officer Smith was at the accident scene for 1 hour 40 minutes.

---Officer Smith Arrived on scene 7:46-- departed scene 9:26 p.m.

---EMS (2 people) responded briefly arriving at 7:56, departing 8:02

---Fire (8 people total) arrived 7:57, departed at 8:49
-- note---fire was there a long time because the entire fire department (practically) responded because they just happened to be having a full department meeting that night when the call came out and they all decided to go to the call.

A search was done by smith, the fire department and neighbors.

the tow truck responded and took the car away from scene at 8:50 p.m.

Officer Smith cleared the accident scene at 8:50 p.m. and stayed on scene another 36 minutes (likely filling out reports and talking to witnesses).

Just wanted to get that out there for clarity, not to dispute anything said so far.

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

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Jenkins - she was seen by a driver 4-5 miles away from the crash. If someone wants to avoid the police it isn't LE's resposibility to try to find them after a car crash.
If you truly think that family thought that she was abducted then why do there actions and words show otherwise?
- The PC was never checked to see if she had a stalker
- The car was surrendered to the auto body to be smahed and salvaged
- News video show family appealing to MM and not the abductor.
How many families in similair situations where they think foul play do this?

I have serious doubts as to how reliable the cw's sighting of Maura was, as do a lot of other people like both frank Kelly and John Healy, both of the most vocal pi's that were workin this case. Both of them are ex-sp and extremely experienced investigators. They both discount his story and have very good reasons for doing so. I'm not gonna write them here, they're easy to find I'm sure, but they are very convincing.
It doesn't seem like scarinza puts much stock in that statement either. In his interview w renner he makes no mentions of that sighting and says "I get the sense she may have gotten a ride". He seems to think that she caught a ride out of the immediate area. If he thinks she caught a ride then he obviously doesn't think the cw's sighting holds much weight.
The cw didn't come forward to le with this sighting, he was overheard telling people the story and was then approached by the pi's, who brought the info to le, iirc. Once he was brought in to the station he probably felt like he had to stick to the story, and came up with his little story about mixing up the nights.
The pi's seemed to think, and I agree, that he was trying to draw attention away from his neighborhood for some reason.
At that point, really early in the investigation, le, particularly the HPD was really trying to make it look like she was a suicide or a runaway, and they were more than happy to release that info to the public. That doesnt mean that they still believe it and i think they never really did; it's bullshit.

Something I find extremely interesting is the fact that the sp pulled over his trailer when it was being towed away and searched it, in order to bypass the need for a search warrant. That's pretty crazy if you think about it, that means le thought the cw could have potentially had something to do with her dissapearance. There's obviously no other reason to do that. That also means that they likely had asked him to search the trailer an were denied and very likely they even put in for a search warrant but didn't have enough pc.
I wonder what makes them think he could potentially be connected? There must be something, I seriously doubt they put in for a warrant for the wman's house. I've never heard anything about them searching the sbd's property after he moved for evidence.
Why the cw?
We know he was tracelling 112 that night at the exact right time to have seen her if she was walking east, so he had opportunity. That doesn't really mean anything though, you would think they had a little more reason to think that then that
Could it be that comment?
Could the SP believe that story is a fabrication?
Do the SP believe that he may be connected bc he fabricated that story?

I always got the sense they were just straight up fishing when they pulled that trailer over but do you think they would waste their time doing that if they believed his story? Hell no

Hi all,anyone know how long it took to actually call for a tow truck.The driver of the saturn could not return to it with all those people around searching for a driver.Maybe Sgt.Smith was waiting for the driver to return or on the phone with umass finding out about Mauras' past.If I remember he did not fill out the accident report until after Maura was declared missing.take care philip

Jenkins, you make me laugh, I just actualy read all of your painfully long rambling posts on the last few pages, all I can say now is what I have said before.

You are an idiot, because of your absolute ignorance and unwillingness to listen to what people are trying to tell you.

As I said, you aren't even smart enough to know what you don't know.

I feel sorry for you.

Jenkins wrote:

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I have serious doubts as to how reliable the cw's sighting of Maura was, as do a lot of other people like both frank Kelly and John Healy, both of the most vocal pi's that were workin this case. Both of them are ex-sp and extremely experienced investigators. They both discount his story and have very good reasons for doing so. I'm not gonna write them here, they're easy to find I'm sure, but they are very convincing.
It doesn't seem like scarinza puts much stock in that statement either. In his interview w renner he makes no mentions of that sighting and says "I get the sense she may have gotten a ride". He seems to think that she caught a ride out of the immediate area. If he thinks she caught a ride then he obviously doesn't think the cw's sighting holds much weight.
The cw didn't come forward to le with this sighting, he was overheard telling people the story and was then approached by the pi's, who brought the info to le, iirc. Once he was brought in to the station he probably felt like he had to stick to the story, and came up with his little story about mixing up the nights.
The pi's seemed to think, and I agree, that he was trying to draw attention away from his neighborhood for some reason.
At that point, really early in the investigation, le, particularly the HPD was really trying to make it look like she was a suicide or a runaway, and they were more than happy to release that info to the public. That doesnt mean that they still believe it and i think they never really did; it's bullshit.
Something I find extremely interesting is the fact that the sp pulled over his trailer when it was being towed away and searched it, in order to bypass the need for a search warrant. That's pretty crazy if you think about it, that means le thought the cw could have potentially had something to do with her dissapearance. There's obviously no other reason to do that. That also means that they likely had asked him to search the trailer an were denied and very likely they even put in for a search warrant but didn't have enough pc.
I wonder what makes them think he could potentially be connected? There must be something, I seriously doubt they put in for a warrant for the wman's house. I've never heard anything about them searching the sbd's property after he moved for evidence.
Why the cw?
We know he was tracelling 112 that night at the exact right time to have seen her if she was walking east, so he had opportunity. That doesn't really mean anything though, you would think they had a little more reason to think that then that
Could it be that comment?
Could the SP believe that story is a fabrication?
Do the SP believe that he may be connected bc he fabricated that story?
I always got the sense they were just straight up fishing when they pulled that trailer over but do you think they would waste their time doing that if they believed his story? Hell no

Source caledonian record

""Based on the description of what he saw, we believe it may have been Maura," Scarinza said, referring to the witness seeing a young woman fitting Maura's description about an hour after the accident. "Based on the place and based on the time, there is a good possibility the person he saw on 112 was Maura."

There are also other quotes where Scarinza calls the sighting Credible and he believes RF saw the hanson Native.

If CS cleared the scene and Left after say 45 min then he would have been slammed for leaving a young female to find her way on a winters night in the pitch dark > CS stayes for 2 hours in hopes the girl would return or be found. I read no more than that into it.

It is not like CS was called to another scene and had to be somewhere until he got the call to go to the powerlines. It's either go to D&D or wait in the area in hopes she will show. CS may have been driving the area for all we know.

Jenkins wrote:

The cops do NOT stay on the scene of all these accidents for 2hrs, that is not normal. There is just no need; you take a quick look around to make sure the driver isn't hurt nearby and you call a tow truck, maybe talk to a witness quickly if there is one available. I would say that generally it is unusual for a cop to stay on the scene of a one car accident for longer than an hour.

LOL, May I ask you a question?

How do you know what is normal and what is not normal for what cops do? It's a fair question, isn't it?

How can you say what cop's normally do? Is this based on your experience as a cop? Based on all the accident scenes you covered? Based on the many times you have completed an accident report?

lol, seriously, how can anyone take you seriously when you make such absurd statements with absolutely NO experience?

JWB wrote:

It is not like CS was called to another scene and had to be somewhere until he got the call to go to the powerlines. It's either go to D&D or wait in the area in hopes she will show. CS may have been driving the area for all we know.

I completely concur with this post. Here is my experience covering about a million accidents in my career.

You show up, see if anyone is injured, call a tow truck, and start to gather all the information needed to complete the accident form, which in NH is very lengthy.

Then you sit there, wait for the tow truck, communicate with dispatch, once the tow truck removes the car I would usually sit there and finish the accident report. The last part of an accident report is the narrative and drawing, so instead of stopping mid report, I often sat there and finished the narrative and drawing then cleared.

It also kept you from getting called onto another case before you finished the report.

Again, these are all the little things that everyone does in their trade that most people outside the trade don't really know about.

Stuff like if you hear another cop out on an accident, you often cruise by just to see if they are all set, if they need help with traffic control, just to say Hi how goes it. I am sure that's what John M was doing there, checking on a brother officer to see if they needed help. I am sure he cruised around looking for the driver (Maura), I am sure he went several miles East, several miles West, up BHR etc. When he didn't see anyone he said ok well good luck, see you later.

It happpens just like that all the time, nothing about anything that was done here is unsusual in any way. Typical, every day normal cop stuff.

Jenkins wrote:

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I have serious doubts as to how reliable the cw's sighting of Maura was, as do a lot of other people like both frank Kelly and John Healy, both of the most vocal pi's that were workin this case. Both of them are ex-sp and extremely experienced investigators. They both discount his story and have very good reasons for doing so. I'm not gonna write them here, they're easy to find I'm sure, but they are very convincing.
It doesn't seem like scarinza puts much stock in that statement either. In his interview w renner he makes no mentions of that sighting and says "I get the sense she may have gotten a ride". He seems to think that she caught a ride out of the immediate area. If he thinks she caught a ride then he obviously doesn't think the cw's sighting holds much weight.
The cw didn't come forward to le with this sighting, he was overheard telling people the story and was then approached by the pi's, who brought the info to le, iirc. Once he was brought in to the station he probably felt like he had to stick to the story, and came up with his little story about mixing up the nights.
The pi's seemed to think, and I agree, that he was trying to draw attention away from his neighborhood for some reason.
At that point, really early in the investigation, le, particularly the HPD was really trying to make it look like she was a suicide or a runaway, and they were more than happy to release that info to the public. That doesnt mean that they still believe it and i think they never really did; it's bullshit.
Something I find extremely interesting is the fact that the sp pulled over his trailer when it was being towed away and searched it, in order to bypass the need for a search warrant. That's pretty crazy if you think about it, that means le thought the cw could have potentially had something to do with her dissapearance. There's obviously no other reason to do that. That also means that they likely had asked him to search the trailer an were denied and very likely they even put in for a search warrant but didn't have enough pc.
I wonder what makes them think he could potentially be connected? There must be something, I seriously doubt they put in for a warrant for the wman's house. I've never heard anything about them searching the sbd's property after he moved for evidence.
Why the cw?
We know he was tracelling 112 that night at the exact right time to have seen her if she was walking east, so he had opportunity. That doesn't really mean anything though, you would think they had a little more reason to think that then that
Could it be that comment?
Could the SP believe that story is a fabrication?
Do the SP believe that he may be connected bc he fabricated that story?
I always got the sense they were just straight up fishing when they pulled that trailer over but do you think they would waste their time doing that if they believed his story? Hell no

Do you actually want us to believe that they pulled the CW's trailer over and searched it on the side of the road? That's completely untrue. Are you just making things up as this is the first time I've heard this story.

Wowzer the real one wrote:

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Do you actually want us to believe that they pulled the CW's trailer over and searched it on the side of the road? That's completely untrue. Are you just making things up as this is the first time I've heard this story.

From renner:

"Rusty Cowles says eventually Forcier sold his trailer and had it trucked away. When he did, the state police pulled the truck over and searched the trailer from top to bottom, a clever way to get around a search warrant. Forcier has since moved away from Haverhill to be closer to his kids. He has not responded to a request for an interview."

I am not sure who Rusty Cowle is??

Perhaps the transporting of trailer didn't have the proper permits through the DOT/DOS according to the weight etc South to Lyme, NH.
I do know that it was encircled with yellow tape and inspected in Lyme.

JWB wrote:

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From renner:
"Rusty Cowles says eventually Forcier sold his trailer and had it trucked away. When he did, the state police pulled the truck over and searched the trailer from top to bottom, a clever way to get around a search warrant. Forcier has since moved away from Haverhill to be closer to his kids. He has not responded to a request for an interview."

In the past we were told that it was searched after it reached it's destination. I don't think it was immediately searched but not sure how soon after it was parked did they search it.
In all these years of reading these forums I've never heard that the SP pulled it over on the road and searched it.
Also I believe they would still need a search warrent unless the new owner gave permission for it to be searched.They would not have pulled it over on the road to thoroughly search it .

Wowzer the real one wrote:

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In the past we were told that it was searched after it reached it's destination. I don't think it was immediately searched but not sure how soon after it was parked did they search it.
In all these years of reading these forums I've never heard that the SP pulled it over on the road and searched it.
Also I believe they would still need a search warrent unless the new owner gave permission for it to be searched.They would not have pulled it over on the road to thoroughly search it .

So do you think the NHSP just followed the trailer to its final desination point and then searched it or do you think they already knew where the trailer was going and then searched it at their convenience?

In re reading Renners article Renner interviewed Mr Cowles and his wife who lived accross the street from RF . The Cowles remained in Contact with RF. Either Mr Cowles saw the Trailer getting pulled over or this was relayed to him by RF.

Regardless if it was searched in Haverhill or Lyme, I think Jenkins point was that RF was a person of interest or they wouldn't have searched his trailer.

JWB wrote:

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So do you think the NHSP just followed the trailer to its final desination point and then searched it or do you think they already knew where the trailer was going and then searched it at their convenience?

This is not a fact and only my thoughts but I think it was searched at their convenience. Shack knows more about it than I do so maybe she can answer your questions.