Maura Murray

Didn't fred make the comment about the dogs going bonkers to the media? Maybe he didn't use the word bonkers, but something to that effect. He did mention the dogs hitting on that house to the media though.

A cadaver dog would hit on blood due to the fact that the blood would have been decomposing. Decomposition releases gases and it's those gases that the dog smells.

Amy that's interesting what you said about the dog you heard about hitting on a dog's grave. Maybe that dog just wasn't that good? It's very possible it's not an exact science. Dog's bodies are considerably similar to humans, but even If it wasn't a dog I've always wondered how it could be possible for a cadaver dog to only hit on human remains. The handlers claim that to be the case but obviously dogs can make mistakes sometimes.

Bill you've been told a dog won't hit on blood?
I thought they won't hit on fresh blood but they will hit on old blood, due to the fact that it does start to decompose.

You heard they won't hit on blood, do you know if they were talking about fresh blood or old blood or were they saying no blood at all?

amy researches wrote:

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Interesting questions. I don't know the answers. I can't think of too many jobs that let out around 2am-ish, other than maybe a bartender? Was she said to have met someone, or were you just tossing the idea out for discussion?

Possible scenario: Saturn unavailable for whatever reason. MM drives dad back to motel because she needs Corolla to later meet by herself someone getting off work late that night. This explains why she kept Corolla instead of dad driving Corolla by himself back to motel and MM walking short distance from ABC to dorm and staying there for night. MM leaves dorm party unexpectedly, meets someone who got out of work around 2 or 230AM, possibly to discuss Vasi hit. Meeting was not the kind dad could attend, but one he needed to learn about asap. Meeting may have been somewhat adversarial, but still a planning session. Dad waits at motel for MM to arrive and tell him about meeting.

If meeting was at all potentially contentious and dad could not attend, then that increases chance of shared and maybe disputed responsibility for something like a Vasi hit. If MM hit Vasi, then no need for all this. But if car loaned to person who hit Vasi, then lack of a Saturn Saturday night, and loan to MM of dad's new Corolla, and late night motel visit (report) all start to make sense. Non-MM driver of Saturn requesting meeting suggests some kind of power or consequence. So maybe Saturn hit Vasi, Saturn hidden, and person who hit Vasi with Saturn got out of work around 2 or 230 AM Sunday. Just tossing it out. Just speculation.

dll wrote:

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Hi Orko - Hope you dont mind but I checked out your others photos too. Nice photos!You & the Canon did a great job. Especially liked the shot with the Challenger. Is it yours? Not fishing just curious if it's a 69 or 70 can't quite tell by the tail ights. The E body is hard to miss. Hubby is a Mopar guy & has it's sister the AAR Cuda. Sorry for being off topic. Thanks for sharing the pics :)

Morning Orko - Too bad it's not, the Challenger is a nice ride. He probably thought you were taking his picture :)

I saw the tire tracks. My first thought was pickups cutting the corner regulary, but I noticed in the other photos the width of the cut swath appeared to be the same as some of the small mower decks used by subcontractors for roadside mowing. IIRC the subcontractor who mowed for Haverhill did it around mid July. Not sure if he still does. Or the darker tracks on the high side of the curve could be from the homeowner spinning when mowing their own lawn.

Regarding the specualtion about Maura's crash I can see that as a possibility. New drivers & new to winter conditions drivers have a hard time laying off the brakes &/or pump the ABS brakes. I dont remember the sand trucks being out in St J that night. As I recall the roads were clear. Dont know about Haverhill. At most there was a "slight" dusting of snow and I do mean slight. Tiny flecks of snow/ice crystals floating in the air. If the driver was coming around the corner too fast, panicked & hit the brakes they could have fish tailed and spun around.

Jenkins wrote:

I believe bill has it right about the cadaver dogs.
Supposedly they will only hit on human remains.
Cadaver dogs are supposed to be rather reliable in this regard.
So citi- since Fred wasn't present during the search of the A-frame then it is safe to assume that the "bonkers" comment was actually said by a pi originally, not Fred?
And just to be clear did the pi's get the carpet sample forensically tested or did only LE do that? The test to confirm whether it is blood or not is an easy test that can be performed in the field if they had the right materials, which I would think they would.
Did they test it for the presence of blood in the field and when it was found to be present they gave it to the NHSP to be analyzed forensically?
I thought I read somewhere that the carpet was cut into two samples and the pi's had once piece tested independently and LE tested the other piece. Is that wrong?
Was LE the only ones who had the carpet tested forensically?

John Healy said that they turned over the carpet samples to the NHSP for testing.

citigirl wrote:

<quoted text>They did test it and it came out positive for blood. What Healy did say is anything they learned regarding this case they would turn it over to LE,

Thanks Citigirl- but tit was sent out to NHSP for DNA testing or further evaluation correct?

What I don't understand is Shack said Menstrual Blood was found . How could they possibly know the difference with a luminol test? Is this even possible? Shack wouldn't know the findings of the NHSP.

ok- Found some info on Menstrual blood detection. There are distinctions between body fluids, but based on the diagram on page 4 of this attachment:
http://www.sjsu.edu/people/steven.lee/courses... .

It takes a different test to determine than Luminol. I don't know if the PI's were able to do other field testing besides Luminol.

Jenkins wrote:

Bill you've been told a dog won't hit on blood?
I thought they won't hit on fresh blood but they will hit on old blood, due to the fact that it does start to decompose.
You heard they won't hit on blood, do you know if they were talking about fresh blood or old blood or were they saying no blood at all?

If I remember correctly, cadaver dogs were used and based on this site they will hit on blood.http://caninebreeds.bull doginformation.com/types-of-wo rking-dogs.html

JWB wrote:

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Thanks Citigirl- but tit was sent out to NHSP for DNA testing or further evaluation correct?
What I don't understand is Shack said Menstrual Blood was found . How could they possibly know the difference with a luminol test? Is this even possible? Shack wouldn't know the findings of the NHSP.

oops not "tit" it . lol

Jenkins wrote:

Bill you've been told a dog won't hit on blood?
I thought they won't hit on fresh blood but they will hit on old blood, due to the fact that it does start to decompose.
You heard they won't hit on blood, do you know if they were talking about fresh blood or old blood or were they saying no blood at all?

I haven't been told explicitly that they will or won't hit on blood so I don't know the answer to that and have never asked that question. I have only asked about the difference between human and animal remains. I thought, and this is just my thought, that they smelled cadaverine and putrescine but again, that is just what I thought.

Bill

WTH-the-original wrote:

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I haven't been told explicitly that they will or won't hit on blood so I don't know the answer to that and have never asked that question. I have only asked about the difference between human and animal remains. I thought, and this is just my thought, that they smelled cadaverine and putrescine but again, that is just what I thought.
Bill

I'm by no means a dog expert. But from what I read cadaver dogs are trained to sit or lay down if they hit on a sent and not to bark or do anything to potentially ruin a crime scene. If this is really the case how does a dog go "bonkers"?

Jenkins wrote:

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Haha lighthouse, thats some funny shit right there

Just keeping it light thats all. Glad you were able to laugh at that.

Enough already with the Bonkers thing. Fred said Bonkers. Bonkers is a common term in New England to mean excited. Squaw walk- bonkers etc.. get over it already .

citigirl wrote:

<quoted text>They did test it and it came out positive for blood. What Healy did say is anything they learned regarding this case they would turn it over to LE,

We should also assume that Healy isn't just searching houses and testing for blood, but then not testing for DNA. Was he just going into the house to look for random drops of blood, or was he going in to see if those random drops of blood was MM's? I'm sure a DNA test was done.

If you were given the results of the test that it came back positive for blood I'm 99% sure that your follow up question would be "Is it MM's" I would be hard pressed to think Healy would tell you the results of one test, but not the other.

I think he would have to test for DNA or else this blood sample means absolutely nothing. To say you have a random drop of blood in someone's house means nothing. To say you have a drop of blood from someone that is a missing person means a lot. Healy says he's 90% the Aframe search has nothing to do with MM. One can assume it was just a random drop of blood not associated to a missing person.

Getting back to my second paragraph I would be very hardpressed to not believe that when you found out it was human blood that you wouldn't want to see if it was MM's. I have a really tough time not believing that the results wouldn't be sent to the governor in another letter (and rightfully so) if they were indeed hers.

By being coy and not giving out the DNA results it keeps the Aframe open to a place of interest.

Everything that was found was turned over to NHSP to further investigate.They determined blood or not and the answer must have been yes. NHSP has the resources for Further forensics and they aren't going to say what they found.

JWB wrote:

Enough already with the Bonkers thing. Fred said Bonkers. Bonkers is a common term in New England to mean excited. Squaw walk- bonkers etc.. get over it already .

Any any other quotes like when asked about the events before MM's disappearance : "It doesn't matter"

We lack the situated knowledge to understand the meaning behind any of those quotes.

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

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I'm sure a DNA test was done.

I'm not 100% sure but the article makes reference to it, and I would think the only way to find out if the blood has anything to do with MM is by DNA test.

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

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I'm by no means a dog expert. But from what I read cadaver dogs are trained to sit or lay down if they hit on a sent and not to bark or do anything to potentially ruin a crime scene. If this is really the case how does a dog go "bonkers"?

You are correct. At least that is the typical behavior that I have seen. So the whole "bonkers" statement either reeks of someone who wants to overly dramatize something, she was always a drama queen. Or if that is what really happened, one would need to question if the dogs were of any actual use at all. My belief is that the source, wanted to over dramatize this, as she has done repeatedly. Shack was always a very, "the ends justifies the means" type of person, so hyperbole was often used. The sad part is that it makes the entire story unreliable. We don't know what happened, the quality of the K-9 teams, or much of anything because there wasn't any independent (i.e. someone with nothing to gain or lose) viewers (people with knowledge also) and no reliable reports were ever released on what was found, how it was found, what tests were done, etc. Some people think that is a good thing, but typically these things are available and when it isn't it generally means a group that is afraid of someone reviewing what they did. Not always, but often. Based upon some of the theories and statements released by the group, I have serious misgivings about their competence, but again, I am suspicious by nature. Nothing they have said has made me believe they really knew what they were doing. Why they chose certain areas, what those areas where and what their POS and POD were for the areas searched.

Bill

JWB wrote:

Everything that was found was turned over to NHSP to further investigate.They determined blood or not and the answer must have been yes. NHSP has the resources for Further forensics and they aren't going to say what they found.

I think DNA tests can be ordered by third parties. How can Healy tell Renner he is 90% sure the Aframe has nothing to do with MM without the results to know if it was her blood or not?

They could be but The PI's were not doing their own investigation sort of speak. The Pi's were helping NHSP obtain evidence and turning it over for further evaluation. Listen to Healy on Crimewire and you will get a better feel for that.

remember- Healy and his crew were volunteers.Who would pay for third party testing? I would imagine it would be very expensive.