Maura Murray

JWB wrote:

They could be but The PI's were not doing their own investigation sort of speak. The Pi's were helping NHSP obtain evidence and turning it over for further evaluation.

I'll try to listen to Healy but it sounds like bullshit to me. Since when does any police agency have PI's "help" them in an investigation? In particular, without any representative there? I mean, I am sure Healy wants to characterize it in that manner. Helps lend legitimacy to what he is doing and is outstanding free PR. Maybe even generates some more jobs for him. Doesn't mean it has any basis in fact.

Bill

JWB wrote:

They could be but The PI's were not doing their own investigation sort of speak. The Pi's were helping NHSP obtain evidence and turning it over for further evaluation. Listen to Healy on Crimewire and you will get a better feel for that.
remember- Healy and his crew were volunteers.Who would pay for third party testing? I would imagine it would be very expensive.

I didn't know State LE agencies allowed third parties to gather evidence like this. Could you imagine how easy it would be to frame someone? Could you imagine if a third party handed in evidence to be used in court? Wouldn't that be easy to defend by a defense attorney as planted or tainted?
Would you if on a jury say that wouldn't create reasonable doubt?

If Healy doesn't have any money or a lab willing to do a little pro bono work then what is the point of him gathering any evidence? How did he test for blood if he didn't have any money?
Why test for just blood and not DNA? Why would you want to know it was blood, but not who's blood.

There are some interesting bits in this article:
http://www.whitmanhansonexpress.com/extras/sp...

"There is confusion over who has custody of the carpet. Private Investigator Healy was ill the weekend of the search, but said that police were not at all interested in the evidence and would not take the carpet into their possession. Healy said the carpet is in the custody of an investigator who no longer "has business relations" with the group.

Private Investigator Don Nason, who is the current president of the volunteer organization and was present at the search of the A-frame house, said all evidence was turned in to State Police. "We don't have the proper storage facility to hold evidence," he said.

...

"As an investigator, Nason is also sensitive to the police investigation for fear of "compromising" the case. Nason said most information volunteer investigators gather is only released to State Police and the Attorney General's Office; "It doesn't even go to Fred."

...

This would explain why citigirl does not know the results of the carpet tests. However, it does not explain why Healy told Renner he was "90% sure it had nothing to do with the case." http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2011/09/credi...

amy researches wrote:

There are some interesting bits in this article:
http://www.whitmanhansonexpress.com/extras/sp...
"There is confusion over who has custody of the carpet. Private Investigator Healy was ill the weekend of the search, but said that police were not at all interested in the evidence and would not take the carpet into their possession. Healy said the carpet is in the custody of an investigator who no longer "has business relations" with the group.
Private Investigator Don Nason, who is the current president of the volunteer organization and was present at the search of the A-frame house, said all evidence was turned in to State Police. "We don't have the proper storage facility to hold evidence," he said.
...
"As an investigator, Nason is also sensitive to the police investigation for fear of "compromising" the case. Nason said most information volunteer investigators gather is only released to State Police and the Attorney General's Office; "It doesn't even go to Fred."
...
This would explain why citigirl does not know the results of the carpet tests. However, it does not explain why Healy told Renner he was "90% sure it had nothing to do with the case." http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2011/09/credi...

Thanks for reminding me of those incidents. More of the reasons that I remembered the entire PI episode with the A-frame as a total, unequivocal, cluster f**k.

Bill

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

<quoted text>
I didn't know State LE agencies allowed third parties to gather evidence like this. Could you imagine how easy it would be to frame someone? Could you imagine if a third party handed in evidence to be used in court? Wouldn't that be easy to defend by a defense attorney as planted or tainted?
Would you if on a jury say that wouldn't create reasonable doubt?
If Healy doesn't have any money or a lab willing to do a little pro bono work then what is the point of him gathering any evidence? How did he test for blood if he didn't have any money?
Why test for just blood and not DNA? Why would you want to know it was blood, but not who's blood.

well they did collect evidence right?They also re interviewed people. Healy was a former NHSP officer and he knew to keep his investigation on the up n up. The benefit being resources.They uncovered the CW statement about his spotting 4-5 miles away also. they gave the info to the NHSP. the NHSP are the ones that will eventually prosecute if there are findings.

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
Thanks for reminding me of those incidents. More of the reasons that I remembered the entire PI episode with the A-frame as a total, unequivocal, cluster f**k.
Bill

Please explain what the Cluster F is here? They turned over the carpet to NHSP.

amy researches wrote:

This would explain why citigirl does not know the results of the carpet tests. However, it does not explain why Healy told Renner he was "90% sure it had nothing to do with the case." http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2011/09/credi...

In what you wrote in this post it makes sense, but Citigirl makes mention that it was def blood. She has always gone on record to say that. I don't know how she would be able to know that it was blood if the PI's didn't tell her.

Also I'm going to assume that this isn't like the movies. You can spray a chemical on to reveal blood, but to make blood reveal itself it has to go through a chemical reaction. I'm going to think this reaction would most likely destroy the sample's integrity to be tested for DNA.

I will also think that PI's would know this and they aren't looking for samples to be tied to a missing person. So a lab would have to look at these samples to test for human blood and have its integrity kept for further DNA testing. For citigirl to say without a doubt that it is human blood I would think she was given the lab results.

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

<quoted text>

If Healy doesn't have any money or a lab willing to do a little pro bono work then what is the point of him gathering any evidence? How did he test for blood if he didn't have any money?
Why test for just blood and not DNA? Why would you want to know it was blood, but not who's blood.

I would imagine that spraying luminol is far less expensive than doing forensics on the carpet.just a guess

JWB wrote:

<quoted text>
I would imagine that spraying luminol is far less expensive than doing forensics on the carpet.just a guess

Your right it is. Now you proved it is blood. Could be animal blood could be human. Probably can't test it now because you destroyed the sample integrity for a DNA test. Now you can send it to LE and say you have cat - dog or duman blood on a carpet, and they can't do any further testing.

Please don't take what I'm saying personally you have been really nice the past month it hasn't gone unnoticed.

express wrote:

<quoted text>
Possible scenario: Saturn unavailable for whatever reason. MM drives dad back to motel because she needs Corolla to later meet by herself someone getting off work late that night. This explains why she kept Corolla instead of dad driving Corolla by himself back to motel and MM walking short distance from ABC to dorm and staying there for night. MM leaves dorm party unexpectedly, meets someone who got out of work around 2 or 230AM, possibly to discuss Vasi hit. Meeting was not the kind dad could attend, but one he needed to learn about asap. Meeting may have been somewhat adversarial, but still a planning session. Dad waits at motel for MM to arrive and tell him about meeting.
If meeting was at all potentially contentious and dad could not attend, then that increases chance of shared and maybe disputed responsibility for something like a Vasi hit. If MM hit Vasi, then no need for all this. But if car loaned to person who hit Vasi, then lack of a Saturn Saturday night, and loan to MM of dad's new Corolla, and late night motel visit (report) all start to make sense. Non-MM driver of Saturn requesting meeting suggests some kind of power or consequence. So maybe Saturn hit Vasi, Saturn hidden, and person who hit Vasi with Saturn got out of work around 2 or 230 AM Sunday. Just tossing it out. Just speculation.

Interesting idea. If she had someplace she needed to go after the party, it would explain dad lending her the car.

However, I am at a loss for who - besides his own child - a parent might want to protect, or why, from the consequences of a serious crime. Ultimately, if things went wrong with their plan, his child could take the blame for the crime someone else committed (if she lent the saturn to someone who hit Vasi). If someone borrowed her car and she wanted to protect that person, or that person threatened or had some power over her, I doubt that any father would go along with this. Not saying it's impossible, but I find it unlikely considering the type of character her father seems to possess. He doesn't come across as someone who would knowingly let someone else threaten or control him or his daughter, but that is just my opinion and I've never met the man.

It could also be that her father lent her the car because she had plans to meet up with a friend later that night or early the next morning, or she needed to pick up something from a store or pharmacy, etc. Telling her friends that she needed to leave the party to get her car back to her father's motel might have been an excuse to leave the party to go meet up with a friend, or purchase some food (if anything is open that late). Then once the crash happened, she made the decision to have the car towed to her father's motel. There are a lot of possible scenarios.

They can differentiate that as well at the scene.

"It is then necessary to confirm that the blood is of human origin, as animal blood may be completely irrelevant to the crime under investigation. The precipitin test is used to determine the species of the blood’s origin. Blood contains different proteins which vary between species, meaning that the proteins in the blood of one animal may not be accepted by the blood of another species. If a foreign protein is detected, antibodies are produced to protect the body from harm. Serum for this precipitin test is commonly obtained from rabbits, as they have produced antibodies to destroy a small amount of human blood injected into them. This produced anti-human serum is added to the suspected bloodstain. If the blood is of human origin, the serum will precipitate its proteins, which can be visually observed."

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

<quoted text>

Please don't take what I'm saying personally you have been really nice the past month it hasn't gone unnoticed.

Just wait, I am ready to go Bonkers http://www.youtube.com/watch...

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

<quoted text>
In what you wrote in this post it makes sense, but Citigirl makes mention that it was def blood. She has always gone on record to say that. I don't know how she would be able to know that it was blood if the PI's didn't tell her.
Also I'm going to assume that this isn't like the movies. You can spray a chemical on to reveal blood, but to make blood reveal itself it has to go through a chemical reaction. I'm going to think this reaction would most likely destroy the sample's integrity to be tested for DNA.
I will also think that PI's would know this and they aren't looking for samples to be tied to a missing person. So a lab would have to look at these samples to test for human blood and have its integrity kept for further DNA testing. For citigirl to say without a doubt that it is human blood I would think she was given the lab results.

Depending on how large of a carpet sample we are talking about, my uninformed opinion is I would think that they could theoretically cut a small portion and test it without ruining the entire sample.(Why they would do this rather than LE doing this, for reasons of wanting any evidence to be admissible in court, I do not know.) But I am not a forensics expert. So I'll defer to President FrmLE and Agent Jenkins for their comments on this.

amy researches wrote:

<quoted text>
Depending on how large of a carpet sample we are talking about, my uninformed opinion is I would think that they could theoretically cut a small portion and test it without ruining the entire sample.(Why they would do this rather than LE doing this, for reasons of wanting any evidence to be admissible in court, I do not know.) But I am not a forensics expert. So I'll defer to President FrmLE and Agent Jenkins for their comments on this.

It was a closet,and they said that they did cut the carpet in half from what I remember. so a regular closet is what 3'wide 2-3' deep. or the closet could have had slider doors and would be more like 6' wide.

FYI NHLI info sheet

Nature of Investigations


"As an aid to help our clients better understand the nature of the Private Detective industry, the processes by which we work, and the regulations by which we are governed, we have prepared this information sheet so you may have more realistic expectations regarding the work we will conduct on your behalf.


We have no more authority than does a private citizen. We are not police officers. The training, background checks, and certification process we go through in order to obtain our licenses is meant to set us apart as individuals who are committed to unbiased professionalism. As such, we are bound to rigid codes of conduct dictated by the State of NH and State and Federal laws. Members of the NHLI are held to an even higher standard by our code of Professional Ethics.
Similarly, we are not attorneys. Though we are very knowledgeable of the laws governing our actions, any advice we give concerning the direction or outcome of your case is merely a suggestion that should be approved by any legal representative you may have.
We are not magicians. Ours is an industry revolving around details gathered through available information, the understanding of this detail, and the working knowledge of how to follow the trails we uncover. This detailed information is generated through diligence and knowing where to look.
Sometimes the information generated is contrary to what the client hopes to find. We cannot guarantee results. We can only guarantee that the necessary information, documentation, etc.will be searched for diligently, legally, expediently, and as economically as possible. We uncover and present all facts, positive and negative.
If surveillance is necessary we feel obligated to inform you of the "real life caveats." Surveillance, especially moving surveillance, is a hit and miss science. We can perform these observations under agreed upon time and location parameters but cannot promise activity on behalf of the subject.
Similarly, moving surveillance carries with it inherent obstacles such as the unpredictable nature of traffic. There is no guarantee that contact with the subject can be maintained as we cannot predict traffic flow, traffic conditions, weather, or other unforeseen problems. As in number one above, we have no more authority than an ordinary citizen. This includes traffic laws.Privacy and private property laws will dictate the conduct of some surveillance work.
We can, however, make a promise that most of the others agencies can't. That is, we will do everything in our power to reach the goal of obtaining the information you need in a timely and economical fashion and conduct ourselves in a professional and discreet manner while representing you in your case."
John M. Healy
Litigation Intelligence Services, LLC
Warner, NH 03278
Lt (Ret) NH State Police

amy researches wrote:

<quoted text>
Depending on how large of a carpet sample we are talking about, my uninformed opinion is I would think that they could theoretically cut a small portion and test it without ruining the entire sample.(Why they would do this rather than LE doing this, for reasons of wanting any evidence to be admissible in court, I do not know.) But I am not a forensics expert. So I'll defer to President FrmLE and Agent Jenkins for their comments on this.

If it is a big sample your not going to need a dog to see it. I always thought it was small like a couple drops of blood. If this is so large to make multiple samples than you can see the blood with a human eye. Also if the stain was large I'd imagine the landlord asking why is there this huge stain on my rug?

Keep in mind I would think if someone was held there against there will or stored there people would try to clean it up. Apparently they were good enough to remove all hair samples, but that giant soaked blood carpet slipped their mind. Its hard to imagine.

JWB wrote:

Serum for this precipitin test is commonly obtained from rabbits, as they have produced antibodies to destroy a small amount of human blood injected into them. This produced anti-human serum is added to the suspected bloodstain. If the blood is of human origin, the serum will precipitate its proteins, which can be visually observed."

I'm not even trying to be funny did you read your post. To tell the difference you have to add Rabbit serum to the liminol stain. Maybe they can buy luminol but rabbit serum? And then probably have to add just the right amount. I guess its possible.

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm not even trying to be funny did you read your post. To tell the difference you have to add Rabbit serum to the liminol stain. Maybe they can buy luminol but rabbit serum? And then probably have to add just the right amount. I guess its possible.

Between this and Wowzer the rabbit hunter, I am hiding my pet rabbits from all of you.:-P

As to how big the sample was, I have no idea.

If wowzer is right and LE never considered the house to be a crime scene, then my assumption would be that (if the PIs really did turn the carpet over to LE and LE really did test it) there was not a dead human body in the closet.

I'm with Bill that the whole thing sounds like a clusterfuck. If there is legitimate evidence to be collected, my opinion is that LE should be doing that in order for the evidence to later be admissible in court, not leave the job to a group of PIs mixing luminol and rabbit serum into potential evidence. Can you imagine the judge's reaction to this?

amy researches wrote:

<quoted text>
Between this and Wowzer the rabbit hunter, I am hiding my pet rabbits from all of you.:-P
As to how big the sample was, I have no idea.
If wowzer is right and LE never considered the house to be a crime scene, then my assumption would be that (if the PIs really did turn the carpet over to LE and LE really did test it) there was not a dead human body in the closet.
I'm with Bill that the whole thing sounds like a clusterfuck. If there is legitimate evidence to be collected, my opinion is that LE should be doing that in order for the evidence to later be admissible in court, not leave the job to a group of PIs mixing luminol and rabbit serum into potential evidence. Can you imagine the judge's reaction to this?

No kidding. Any chance everything, in its entirety, would be tossed? Also looks like they have an amazing chain-of-evidence thing going on, doesn't it? No one seems to know who or when or if it was actually turned over, depending on which story you listen to.

Bill

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm not even trying to be funny did you read your post. To tell the difference you have to add Rabbit serum to the liminol stain. Maybe they can buy luminol but rabbit serum? And then probably have to add just the right amount. I guess its possible.

I think they got the rabbit serum from Wowzer if i am not mistaken