Maura Murray

I lived in the Waterville estates and walked my dog to the ski hill and my Doberman came running up to me with a dear leg in it mouth. She was carrying it by the broke off femur that was still attached to the knee, the bottom of the leg was basically untouched.

The coyotes, I think, took everything away and just left the 4 legs below the knees perfectly intact. They did that in 1 night. I walked her there the day before and there definitely was no deer legs there, and it was clearly fresh, nothing carried the four legs there. Apparently a pack of coyotes can take apart a body super fast if they want to.

Still extremely rare to hear about it happening to a human, when was the last time you heard about someone who got spread out by coyotes? 1996?

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
If you don't think a bottle of Kahlua could easily make you pass out, I suspect it can, almost certain of it. If you pass out and you are dressed inappropriately you will die of hypothermia. You can look at the reference I produced earlier on Guy Waterman. You can also check in any city in winter. You will find some homeless (it may surprise you to know that some homeless have been known to take a drink once in a while) die from hypothermia, often brought on by their drinking.
Bill

Idk, do you really think a bottle of kahlua is gonna make you pass out? Bottle of kahlua is not that big and it's only 40 proof I believe, that's only 20% alcohol, not much stronger than the wine she has. The standard kahlua bottle is only 750ml if I'm not mistaken, not more than 1l. That's not that much alcohol, especially for someone that drinks, like Maura did. Sharon said she had bloody Mary's in the morning and hard lemonade with lunch. She clearly drank. That'd be about the equivilant of her drinking about 1.75 liters of wine. Almost 2 liters of wine is a good amount of wine and I'm sure would get her drunk but is that really like a freeze to death in the middle of the woods amount. Obviously if she was out there dressed like that she would freeze to death no matter and the alcohol would help speed it up but that's not like passed out drunk amount. That's not even close to enough to pass out in the snow wearing jeans, come on.
Besides for the fact that kahlua tastes nasty by itself, it'd be hard to drink a whole bottle. It would probably make you sick too, I can't see anyone drinking a bottle of that and not throwing up.

Who grabs a bottle of a kahlua an thinks they're ginna go drink themselves to death? Grab their kahlua so they can go sit in the middle of the woods and freeze to death? You have to agree that makes no sense right?

You realize the differences between guy waterman and Maura right?
That guy lived on the mts during the winter, an avid winter mountaineer.
Maura never climbed anything in winter, she thought climbing them in the summer was a challenge.
There's just no way she was thinking she was gonna go climb a mt bringing what she brought and wearing what she wore. That's ridiculous to suggest.
How about like that guy yesterday calling her a "survivalist"; not one person who knew her ever said she was any sort of survivalist. How was she a survivalist?
She hiked on trails in the summer time, that is a completely different thing than trying to climb a mt in the winter through the ice and snow.

Waterman was clearly at home in the mts in winter and I garauntee he still brought gear. I'm sure he wore boots and probably crampons for that super steep part of Lafayette that is rock faces for a long way. No way he went out there in jeans and sneakers, he wouldnt be that stupid; he'd know he wasn't gonna make it. What's the point if you don't make the top? May as well kill yourself at home.
The whole thing about this almost romantic notion of dying on top of a mt people talk about is contingent on one huge thing: making it to the top of the mt. If you can't make the top it loses that whole appeal. If your not at the top your just in the woods somewhere, doesn't sound as good does it? Who wants to freeze to deathat some random spot in the woods?
Just walk randomly into the woods to sit down and die?
Why not do that 20' from the road? What do you think she was trying to hide her body?

Does anybody really think that wearing tennis sneakers and jeans with no gloves she was planning on walking into the woods at any point? Does anyone really think she would've made it very far Into the woods?? Does anyone really think she grabbed her bottle of kahlua to drink herself to death in the woods?

BobJenkins-OG wrote:

<quoted text>Is that the only article you could find that mentioned that maruchan? I take it you googled it, was that the only result? One article from '96?

I posted that story as evidence that, yes, animals can disperse the remains of a human body over a large area. I didn't look for other stories as the one proved the point that it has happened, and I actually have a life away from this forum.

Yes I know that was posted as evidence that it can happen and clearly does on rare occasion. Did I say anything about you not having a life? I'm not frmLE, I don't say shit like that to peopl.
I was asking you about the search you already did, were there any articles you found referencing that and you picked the best one or was that all you found?
All I was asking was if that was the only article you saw, I wasn't saying you need to go comb the library of congress or go find 10 articles on the subject to prove its validity.

It is a valid point and technically possible, however low the chances.

All I'm saying is while it is possible, it's definitely rare. It's certainly not common to hear about bodies being disbursed by animals, for some reason they don't like human remains. You never see a deer carcass intact and decomposed; like a full deer skeleton. Animals almost always spread the remains of a animals but rarely human for some reason.

Do you disagree that it's rare?

BobJenkins-OG wrote:

<quoted text>
Bill did you really track that for a few days??

Yes. Until it was so scattered that I had no more reason. That was about the fifth day. Couldn't find enough to keep trailing it in a definitive direction. I found it originally because I noticed very small tufts of hair floating down a stream, some with flesh still on them. Followed up-stream until I found the fresh kill.

This carcass had the advantage also that it wasn't in a very treed area until the last night. If the area was more treed, like the forest, I would think that carcass would get broken up even faster, and more thoroughly, as it got hung up on trees and brush as it was pulled at by the bigger animals.

Bill

BobJenkins-OG wrote:

You realize the differences between guy waterman and Maura right?
That guy lived on the mts during the winter, an avid winter mountaineer.
Maura never climbed anything in winter, she thought climbing them in the summer was a challenge.
There's just no way she was thinking she was gonna go climb a mt bringing what she brought and wearing what she wore. That's ridiculous to suggest.
How about like that guy yesterday calling her a "survivalist"; not one person who knew her ever said she was any sort of survivalist. How was she a survivalist?

Two things. I don't believe Maura had intentions of going to a peak. I think she may have been suicidal. Her original plan may have been out the window, whatever it was, after the crash. I have seen several suicidal people and they often look for isolation and familiarity as well as very often, areas of psychological comfort to them. And second, yes, she was no survivalist.

Bill

BobJenkins-OG wrote:

<quoted text>
Nobody has offered up anything resembling a logical explanation for why she would've just walked straight into the woods in the first place.
Freezing to death is a horrible way to die, certainly not an ideal method of suicide. Freezing to death by yourself in a lonely spot in the middle of some random forest in NH is just awful, I can't see anyone voluntarily doing that.
Also if this was what she was thinking when she left her car wouldn't you think that she would've taken some more alcohol with her to try to make it a little less painful?? All she took when she left her car was the bottle of kahlua she had, not exactly drink yourself to death liquor.
The theory that she just randomly walked miles into the woods wearing tennis shoes and jeans, far enough that she wouldn't be found for 8.5 yrs, just doesn't make sense on a lot of different levels

Jenkins - Her father is the first person to offer the explanation of her walking into the woods.

Freezing to death probably isn't the ideal way to go - but a lot of victims that experience hypothermia do not even know they are experiencing it. I have read that the mind sometimes makes you think that you are warmer and sometimes people undress. Hypothermia also creates delerium. There is probably a chance she took running from her car in a panic and after she stopped running she probably could have become delrious. I doubt that she had the ability to reason.

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
Two things. I don't believe Maura had intentions of going to a peak. I think she may have been suicidal. Her original plan may have been out the window, whatever it was, after the crash. I have seen several suicidal people and they often look for isolation and familiarity as well as very often, areas of psychological comfort to them. And second, yes, she was no survivalist.
Bill

Bill - I have read of something called terminal burrowing. It is part of the "cold crazy" "cold stupid" symptoms of hypothermia. Its a self preservation method where the victim will actual try to burrow themselves in the ground. Have you ever heard of this?

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

<quoted text>
citigirl wrote:
<quoted text>Healy was not at the Oct.2006 search. This house was searched because of what a NH resident had said. There were hits in this house. A couple of PIs told me the carpeting tested positive for blood. We tried to find out if DNA testing was done but never recieved an answer concerning whether or whether or not DNA testing was done. So it is unknown to me if DNA testing was done.

Did a lab test it? Was it even human blood?

Citigirl - can you answer this question please. Was the blood tested at a lab and was it even human blood?
Did the blood type even match MM's?

BobJenkins-OG wrote:

Do you disagree that it's rare?

Bob, it's a lump of meat. I have seen coyotes eat cupcakes and banana bread, I think they would figure out what to do with a dead human body. I think that you might think it is rare only because its not always mentioned in the press and more importantly, people are looked for. All that human activity thrashing around in the woods typically moves animals away. If the bodies are found soon after their disappearance they might not have that much or possibly any animal activity. If animals can find it and get to it, they will do to it what animals do. No scavenger passes up a free meal, particularly a relatively fresh one. If it is buried or in areas of high dry heat or otherwise frozen because of weather, that will have an effect. I came across a frozen deer carcass in the Adirondacks, half eaten. I don't know when it died but it could have been there for a while. Didn't appear to have as much activity when it was frozen solid. But the freezing didn't appear to prevent the destruction, it at best slows it and maybe delayed it a little. Coyotes in particular will still work over a frozen carcass, bears might be hibernating, but they do wake up and walk around looking for food in the winter. Smaller animals can also work on it but not as easily. High dry heat tends to mummify human remains, also having the ability to slow down, maybe even prevent most animal activity.

And bears sense of smell is legendary. And Indian saying "A leaf fell in the woods, the eagle saw it, the owl heard it, and the bear smelled it." A black bears sense of smell is something like around 10 times better than a bloodhounds.

Bill

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

<quoted text>
Bill - I have read of something called terminal burrowing. It is part of the "cold crazy" "cold stupid" symptoms of hypothermia. Its a self preservation method where the victim will actual try to burrow themselves in the ground. Have you ever heard of this?

Yes. I even wrote about it on Patrics forum as a POSSIBLE explanation for the description of how he was found. The weather conditions were prime for this activity by him, from what I know.

I think cold crazy, cold stupid is actually "paradoxical undressing" not terminal burrowing but I could be wrong.

Bill

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
Yes. Until it was so scattered that I had no more reason. That was about the fifth day. Couldn't find enough to keep trailing it in a definitive direction. I found it originally because I noticed very small tufts of hair floating down a stream, some with flesh still on them. Followed up-stream until I found the fresh kill.
This carcass had the advantage also that it wasn't in a very treed area until the last night. If the area was more treed, like the forest, I would think that carcass would get broken up even faster, and more thoroughly, as it got hung up on trees and brush as it was pulled at by the bigger animals.
Bill

Do you mind if I ask you why you spent 5 nights tracking this deer carcass? Seems like strange behavior; but hey, that's just me.

I have no doubt that can happen in 5 days, like i said above I saw it happen literally overnight. One day there was no deer carcass, the next day there's was 4 legs that had been severed off at the knees, it was obviously fresh.
I'm not sure trees really make that big of a difference or help it break up faster, this was in the middle of an open field. The bottom of a ski hill that isn't operating anymore. So in an open field a pack of coyotes, and I'm assuming coyotes, can disburse a deer carcass literally overnight. Besides the bottom of the legs being there, there was absolutely no other signs that a deer was there; it was one of the more extreme things I've personally seen nature do.

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
Bob, it's a lump of meat. I have seen coyotes eat cupcakes and banana bread, I think they would figure out what to do with a dead human body. I think that you might think it is rare only because its not always mentioned in the press and more importantly, people are looked for. All that human activity thrashing around in the woods typically moves animals away. If the bodies are found soon after their disappearance they might not have that much or possibly any animal activity. If animals can find it and get to it, they will do to it what animals do. No scavenger passes up a free meal, particularly a relatively fresh one. If it is buried or in areas of high dry heat or otherwise frozen because of weather, that will have an effect. I came across a frozen deer carcass in the Adirondacks, half eaten. I don't know when it died but it could have been there for a while. Didn't appear to have as much activity when it was frozen solid. But the freezing didn't appear to prevent the destruction, it at best slows it and maybe delayed it a little. Coyotes in particular will still work over a frozen carcass, bears might be hibernating, but they do wake up and walk around looking for food in the winter. Smaller animals can also work on it but not as easily. High dry heat tends to mummify human remains, also having the ability to slow down, maybe even prevent most animal activity.
And bears sense of smell is legendary. And Indian saying "A leaf fell in the woods, the eagle saw it, the owl heard it, and the bear smelled it." A black bears sense of smell is something like around 10 times better than a bloodhounds.
Bill

There has got to be something more to it than that. It is highly uncommon for animals to take apart a human body, humans are almost always found complete, even after months or years.
On the other hand, animals are almost never seen complete. In all my years in the woods I've never come across a complete animal skeleton and I've never heard of anyone coming across one either. Not saying it never happened but it is clearly extremely rare.

So it is extremely rare for a human to get taken apart and it's very common for a deer not to get spread. There has to be some reason that animals don't usually go for human remains.

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

<quoted text>
Bill - I have read of something called terminal burrowing. It is part of the "cold crazy" "cold stupid" symptoms of hypothermia. Its a self preservation method where the victim will actual try to burrow themselves in the ground. Have you ever heard of this?

May I ask, how does this have anything to do with MM? Am I missing something here?

I dont want to get into a whole thing about it on this forum; anybody can go read patric's forum for more but Bills use of the term "terminal burrowing" on partic's thread is absolutely ridiculous. The boy was found with dirt in his OPEN eyes, I'm sorry but you don't dig your face into the ground with your eyes open, no matter how "cold crazy" you are.

In reality this has nothing to do with MM, there is absolutely no evidence or indication that she entered the woods at all, let alone went "cold crazy" and started "terminal burrowing".

Was there a point to your terminal burrowing post or were you just randomly talking about somethinf people sometimes do, albeit rarely, when they're afflicted with hypothermia?

BobJenkins-OG wrote:

<quoted text>
Do you mind if I ask you why you spent 5 nights tracking this deer carcass? Seems like strange behavior; but hey, that's just me.
I have no doubt that can happen in 5 days, like i said above I saw it happen literally overnight. One day there was no deer carcass, the next day there's was 4 legs that had been severed off at the knees, it was obviously fresh.
I'm not sure trees really make that big of a difference or help it break up faster, this was in the middle of an open field. The bottom of a ski hill that isn't operating anymore. So in an open field a pack of coyotes, and I'm assuming coyotes, can disburse a deer carcass literally overnight. Besides the bottom of the legs being there, there was absolutely no other signs that a deer was there; it was one of the more extreme things I've personally seen nature do.

The other indicator is that it appears, the decomposition (one specific night) caused real damage to the ground underneath. Seems counter-intuitive I know. I don't know if it was stomach or bladder or intestinal contents destroyed the ground underneath causing nothing to grow there for the rest of the season. The effect was absolute, but the reason for the damage (what organs or contents) is up for debate.

Also, you need to recognize the difference between what I think would be considered dispersal and movement. I consider dispersal to be the smallest fragments being transported to many different areas. What you might be describing is the movement of the carcass which over the nights can be 50 to 200 yards per night (in this terrain) depending on the weight.

I did this research specifically for my SAR work to find out how fast a body could disappear and what you would be looking for. I certainly don't consider it any "stranger" than the work done at the body farm. There was a single subject in what I did so there isn't a large amount of data. But I do think it is very representative of what would happen.

Bill

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

<quoted text>
Citigirl - can you answer this question please. Was the blood tested at a lab and was it even human blood?
Did the blood type even match MM's?

I keep seeing you ask her this and i dont get it Seems to me that citi already answered these questions to the best of her ability.

She said the pi's collected it and it did test positive as human blood. From there it was given to LE and she is not privy to the information that was ascertained by them, if any was at all.
Conflicting reports by the nhli; one guy said that LE wasn't interested at all and wouldn't even take the sample, another says that all samples were turned over to LE. Who knows what to believe; I get the sense they weren't interested because they had a pretty damn good idea that it wasn't connected to Maura. But even if it wasn't connected wouldn't you think they'd want to know who's blood it was? What I wonder is how big this blood stain even was. At first, the way it was described, I was under the impression that it was a rather large stain, but reading everything again there is nothing that says how big the stain was. I think I thought it was big due to the fact that they removed a fairly large section of rug, but that doesn't neccesarily mean anything in relation to the size of the stain.
I would think that if it was a really big stain LE would've been very interested in it, but if it was a few drops or a tiny stain I could see them not being worried about it.

One thing seems fairly obvious to me; the whole thing about it being menstruel blood is bullshit. Not that it's definitely not menstruel blood, apparently it is technically possible it could be. But rather whoever said that had no way of knowing that was the source. As far as I can tell the pi's know that it's human blood and that's it. They didn't subject it to further testing so they really have no idea what the source was, they had no way of telling it was menstruel blood. Does anybody know where that story came from?

Either way, citi has answered your questions above as far as I can tell. Maybe you should try reading her posts? I've been seeing you ask this for like a week and she clearly has already given all the info she knows about it.

BobJenkins-OG wrote:

<quoted text>
May I ask, how does this have anything to do with MM? Am I missing something here?
I dont want to get into a whole thing about it on this forum; anybody can go read patric's forum for more but Bills use of the term "terminal burrowing" on partic's thread is absolutely ridiculous. The boy was found with dirt in his OPEN eyes, I'm sorry but you don't dig your face into the ground with your eyes open, no matter how "cold crazy" you are.
In reality this has nothing to do with MM, there is absolutely no evidence or indication that she entered the woods at all, let alone went "cold crazy" and started "terminal burrowing".
Was there a point to your terminal burrowing post or were you just randomly talking about somethinf people sometimes do, albeit rarely, when they're afflicted with hypothermia?

I was merely trying to make a point that there is a chance that she became hypothermic and could have become delerious.

I'm at a loss to your comment "there is no evidence she entered the woods." You treated us to your logic last week since LE searched the CW trailer he had to be a POI at some point. Wouldn't your same logic clearly state "If LE took a search team out in the woods and used a helicopter to search the woods then it is obvious that MM ran off into the woods?" I think this is clear Jenkonian logic.

BobJenkins-OG wrote:

<quoted text>
Either way, citi has answered your questions above as far as I can tell. Maybe you should try reading her posts? I've been seeing you ask this for like a week and she clearly has already given all the info she knows about it.

I have read her posts. and her posts just say "blood on the carpet." I'd like to know if it was human blood. I'd like to know if the lab tested to see if it even matched her blood type. Maybe a DNA test was never done because it wasn't even human blood. I would like to know why with such little evidence would a newspaper be told about this and this placed on internet forums? I doubt many people are going to let you search their house if you are going to condem it over a drop of blood that probably has nothing to do with a missing person.

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

<quoted text>

I'm at a loss to your comment "there is no evidence she entered the woods." You treated us to your logic last week since LE searched the CW trailer he had to be a POI at some point. Wouldn't your same logic clearly state "If LE took a search team out in the woods and used a helicopter to search the woods then it is obvious that MM ran off into the woods?" I think this is clear Jenkonian logic.

Lighthouse- Doing a general search in the woods is completely different than singling out someones home to search . Searching the woods is an obvious thing to do as she was on foot when she left her car. To single out CW trailer to search indicates that LE must have had something that pointed them to do so. To try and connect the logic of searching the CW trailer to searching the woods just doesn't work at all. JMO