Maura Murray

If she wasn't trying to avoid the police, then why did she tell SBD NOT TO CALL police, and why did she lie about her calling AAA?

Why?

She didn't run from the car, but she did leave before the police showed up, didn't she?

Use whatever word you wish, run, leave, disappear, whatever. The fact are this.

* She had alcohol in her car.

* She had alcohol in an open container, which is a violation of Law.

* She intentionally misled SBD regarding her call to AAA for the purpose of not having the police called. IE: She was trying to avoid the cops.

* She left the scene of an accident, another crime, and walked past several houses.

* One of those houses was SBD who had offered to help her and call th Police.

You know what that says to me?

It says, she violated the law a couple times and she was intentionally avoiding the police.

Any other conclusion is just ridiculous.

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
Almost makes one wonder if it was a suicide attempt?? Cry for help??? Maybe?
Just thinking out loud.
Bill

Bill - is it possible. That MM tried a weak attempt at suicide by sticking the rag up the tailpipe while at school sometime before she left for the white mountains and realized that it wasn't working and because of a possible leak in the exhaust system the rag didn't jettison?

Since the rag didn't jettison the car could still run right? Could she still drive the car if there was a leak in the exhaust sytem?

FrmLE wrote:

If she wasn't trying to avoid the police, then why did she tell SBD NOT TO CALL police, and why did she lie about her calling AAA?
Why?
Any other conclusion is just ridiculous.

You make some good points in this post for sure & I can see why you would reach that conclusion.
But you have to consider something else: there's a big difference between running from the cops, ie actively evading them, and just not really feeling like dealing with the cops.
Any way you slice it, drunk or sober, once the cops get there it is a pain in th ass; & it takes a really looooong time. Why have to deal with the cops after a minor one car accident if you don't have to?
There is no question that she didn't feel like dealing with the cops that night, who would? But does that mean she was actively running/evading the cops? No, it definitely doesn't.
The bottom line is that she could've collected her belongings and been outta there in under 30 seconds flat, which is exactly what anyone would expect from someone who was drunk and trying to run from the cops, but that is NOT what she did.
Instead of grabbing her stuff and running off she stayed with her car for the better part of 20 minutes, you can't say she was trying to evaid police, you just can't. Well you can say it but it's clearly wrong. People running from police because they're scared of a DUI don't sit there for 15-17 mins, maybe even longer, they grab their shit and they ditch; they certainly don't sit there on the side of the road with their door open for several mins smoking or trying to use their phone or doing anyhting, they ditch the scene ASAP, that's just simple logic right there.
There's no question that she didn't feel like dealing with the cops that night, what she said to sbd shows that pretty clearly. But that does NOT mean she was actively evading LE.
Let's be honest here, were her actions really much different than what anybody else would do in that situation? She crashed the car, gets out and assesses the damage. Then she sits there for several minutes seeing if she could get a signal on her phone and then spends a few minutes getting her stuff together knowing that she wouldn't be returning to the car that evening. Then after almost 20 minutes she decides to catch a ride out of there, probably thinking at that point the cops weren't even coming. She was from mass, the land where cops are all over & show up in 2 minutes.
Up northern NH it can take the cops an easy hour to arrive on the scene of a minor accident, this is why most people, drunk and sober alike, choose to catch a ride back to town and call for a tow themselves rather than wait who knows how long for a cop to show up and then sit there for another who know how long while the cops calls for a tow and does his thing.
Besides throwing the coke bottle under the car(which everyone is just ASSUMING she threw there), she really did nothing out of the ordinary.
How long are you supposed to wait for the cops when you're under no legal obligation to do so? 20 mins? 30 mins? An hour? 2 hours?? See what I'm getting at?
She waited at the car for nearly 20 minutes, I think that's more than long enough considering.
She clearly wasn't particularly scared of the cops.
Drunk drivers trying to flee the scene flee the scene, she did not flee the scene. You don't hang out at your car for almost 20 minutes when you're trying to flee the scene and you can't say someone who waited at their car for almost 20 minutes fled the scene.
Her actions clearly don't jive with someone who is actively trying to flee the scene of an accident because they're scared of the cops in any way shape or form.
Remember, we have to go by what the witness statements say, not our preconceived ASSUMPTIONS about what we THINK happened. She did a lot of things that might, but fleeing the scene of the accident was NOT one of them.

wowWOWwow

false premises, false conclusion

There is NO difference between actively evading the police and leaving the scene because you don't want to deal with them. Perhaps the perpetrator's attitude about it would be different but the end result is the same and I would think a member of LE would see them much the same unless the "actively evading" involved other crimes, like shooting your way out of a confrontation.

Waiting for her companion to pick her up would explain the lack of immediacy.

Jenkins wrote:

But you have to consider something else: there's a big difference between running from the cops, ie actively evading them, and just not really feeling like dealing with the cops.

No, there is no difference. Both are considered resisting arrest or detention in the eyes of the law.

[QUOTE who="Jenkins]
Any way you slice it, drunk or sober, once the cops get there it is a pain in th ass; & it takes a really looooong time. Why have to deal with the cops after a minor one car accident if you don't have to?[/QUOTE]

Yep, dealing with the cops when you break the law is definitely a pain in the ass.

Why do you have to deal with the cops after a minor MV accident?

Well, because it is against the law not to? Do you understand this, or are you really that ill-informed?

And that doesn't even take into account the SMART, SAFE thing to do, which is wait for the cops rather than walking away from your car on a dark, desolate road that you are not familiar with.

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

<quoted text>
Bill - is it possible. That MM tried a weak attempt at suicide by sticking the rag up the tailpipe while at school sometime before she left for the white mountains and realized that it wasn't working and because of a possible leak in the exhaust system the rag didn't jettison?
Since the rag didn't jettison the car could still run right? Could she still drive the car if there was a leak in the exhaust sytem?

Now, I don't know what Maura might have thought she knew about committing suicide. The only suicides I have seen using exhaust, that were successful either did it in an enclosed garage, or piped the exhaust into the car passenger compartment. I don't see how you could commit suicide by trying to block the exhaust. I know that it has happened by accident but those were flukes, on deep snow with exhaust collecting and building up under the car and leaking into the passenger compartment because of the leaks. Perfect storm type of accidents. Again, that doesn't mean that Maura didn't think that might work. That is why her mindset prior to her leaving is very important to the real investigation in my opinion.

As long as the back-pressure from the exhaust was released enough out of the leaks then it could be possible to not stall the car and not have enough pressure to blow out the rag, but that would need to be a significant number of leaks or one very large one. I would think that any car with that amount of leaks would be noisy as hell.

Bill

BillNH wrote:

Waiting for her companion to pick her up would explain the lack of immediacy.

I think you forgot to modify your statement to be hypothetical or speculative.

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
Now, I don't know what Maura might have thought she knew about committing suicide. The only suicides I have seen using exhaust, that were successful either did it in an enclosed garage, or piped the exhaust into the car passenger compartment. I don't see how you could commit suicide by trying to block the exhaust. I know that it has happened by accident but those were flukes, on deep snow with exhaust collecting and building up under the car and leaking into the passenger compartment because of the leaks. Perfect storm type of accidents. Again, that doesn't mean that Maura didn't think that might work. That is why her mindset prior to her leaving is very important to the real investigation in my opinion.
As long as the back-pressure from the exhaust was released enough out of the leaks then it could be possible to not stall the car and not have enough pressure to blow out the rag, but that would need to be a significant number of leaks or one very large one. I would think that any car with that amount of leaks would be noisy as hell.
Bill

Thanks for answering this.

Snowy wrote:

false premises, false conclusion

So what your saying is false assumption fallacy?

Pointless Endeavor wrote:

<quoted text>
I think you forgot to modify your statement to be hypothetical or speculative.

Doesn't the phrase "would explain" imply speculation? If it was fact I can just say "it explains". ;)

Jenkins wrote:

Remember, we have to go by what the witness statements say, not our preconceived ASSUMPTIONS about what we THINK happened. She did a lot of things that might, but fleeing the scene of the accident was NOT one of them.

Jenkins - you should watch an episode of finding bigfoot. All these people do is get witness testimony of sightings and whatever the witness says they conclude: " Yah squatches would do that." (As if there is any real evidence of a squatch to compare to what they are saying.)

So the whole premise is how the four people want to interpret the witness testimony, and since the show is finding bigfoot all witness testimony leads to a big foot.

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

<quoted text>
So what your saying is false assumption fallacy?

Jenkins' many false premises will, necessarily, bring him to false conclusions.
he does not prove MM did not evade police, although he thinks he's offered proof.
arguing with repetition does not convince me.
further, i am still stunned by his mindset about "dealing with" the police, and its being a "pain in the ass". he projects his mindset onto Maura's presumed actions in the context of his own attitudes.
i won't elaborate further, as i know it is a hopeless endeavor...can't be fixed.

Jenkins wrote:

Instead of grabbing her stuff and running off she stayed with her car for the better part of 20 minutes, you can't say she was trying to evaid police, you just can't. Well you can say it but it's clearly wrong. People running from police because they're scared of a DUI don't sit there for 15-17 mins, maybe even longer, they grab their shit and they ditch; they certainly don't sit there on the side of the road with their door open for several mins smoking or trying to use their phone or doing anyhting, they ditch the scene ASAP, that's just simple logic right there.
There's no question that she didn't feel like dealing with the cops that night, what she said to sbd shows that pretty clearly. But that does NOT mean she was actively evading LE.

MM could have crashed and was ready to accept her fate or maybe didn't think anyone called LE. When she sees SBD and she now knows LE is going to be called that changes a lot of things. I'm willing to bet that her fear at this point was great. You might not know what happens in a panic attack but your heart beat so fast, you can feel your body thrive, it is so uncomfortable that your body starts to act irrational mainly the person starts thinking move around to get change this feeling.

Anticipation is another major anxiety provoking action just her sitting and waiting for 15-20 minutes could have brought her anxiety levels to the roof. The longer you have to wait the higher the levels go.

Jenkins wrote:

Then after almost 20 minutes she decides to catch a ride out of there, probably thinking at that point the cops weren't even coming.

I'm wasting my time telling you this but I want other readers to see this. How can MM put a time on when the "cops" would and should show up when she didn't have cell service? Did she have a telepathic link with the neighbors as to know when they called?

MM didn't know anyone called LE until SBD said he was or she thought he was. And by your own admission she leaves after that within minutes.

Your argument is based off of an illogical assumption that MM was suppossed to assume when LE was going to come when she didn't know when they called. How can you start a timer in your head if you don't know the point at which LE was informed of the argument?

You just argue to be contrary. You in real life wouldn't be made at a date for being "late" by 20 minutes when you never told her the time you were meeting her.

Jenkins wrote:

.
Well that's 20 mins between Crash and LE's arrival.
Maura was last seen at the car just 2-3 minutes before LE arrived. That means she stayed at her car for AT LEAST 15 minutes, probably more like 17 min.
So she was there for almost 20 minutes, for her maybe it felt like a lot longer considering she just crashed and all & probably wasn't paying close attention to the time.
For all we know she WAS waiting for LE to show up and after almost 20 minutes figured they weren't coming and hitched a ride.

Different post same argument. MM was "waiting" for LE but never knew f they were called.

Have you (jenky) considered that perhaps it took Maura 20 minutes to decide what to do? That those 20 minutes were spent deliberating and considering her options?

She surely did not anticipate crashing her car, therefore we could assume that the time immediately after the crash she was perhaps getting her bearings, maybe trying to move the car and continue driving, assessing her options, getting rid of the alcohol from the bottle.

Then she likely came into contact with SBD, tried to convince him to NOT CALL THE POLICE. She was probably trying to use her cell to call AAA, or maybe her Father. So after SBD left she spent some time gathering her things, and that would have taken, perhaps 20 minutes? Then she made the decision to leave and ran, walked, trotted, strolled from the scene.

People do NOT make decisions in an instant, especially when they are troubled and don’t know what they are going to do. They think, ponder, wait, consider, reconsider, and sometimes change their minds. When people commit suicide, do you think it is an instant decision? Or do they stand on the side of the bridge for minutes, sometimes hours, deciding what to do? They are distressed, upset, emotional, and indecisive.

That’s life man, that’s how it REALLY works in the REAL world, not the world you live in on this blog.

I think that’s probably what Maura did, crashed her car, spent some time assessing the situation, tried to call AAA or someone else, couldn’t use her phone, spoke to SBD which may have changed the dynamic, she then reassessed the situation, decided to gather her things, dump out the alcohol, and then before the cops showed up she left.

That’s how it works.

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

<quoted text>All these people do is get witness testimony of sightings and whatever the witness says they conclude: " Yah squatches would do that." (As if there is any real evidence of a squatch to compare to what they are saying.)
So the whole premise is how the four people want to interpret the witness testimony, and since the show is finding bigfoot all witness testimony leads to a big foot.

What is even better is the on at least one of the commercials that I have seen. Any noise in the woods they apparently hear, that they can't identify, which is just about every noise. That is proof of a Sasquatch also.

What morons. I find it even more disturbing that they would show this on Smithsonian network if I remember correctly. All the future researchers who are going to think that is an actual investigation.

Bill