Maura Murray

Snowy wrote:

Jenkins - neither of you will be able to convince the other of your respective arguments; we've heard yours, endlessly, and FrmLE's is from his perspective and experience.

Obviously there is no definitive answer as to what happened to her, if there was we wouldn't be having this conversation. I'm just talking about the probability of one possibiliy over the other, and while I admit that it's theoretically possible it just seems so unlikely at this point that it's ridiculous, and not unlikely because she hasn't been found. There's about a hundred reasons why it's unlikely she is in those woods or ever intended she entered the woods.
On this matter I agree with the experts, the professionals who've actualy worked the case for years; when they say that they're confident she's not in the woods anywere near the crash site and they believe that she caught a ride in the area, I tend to agree with them, not some dude on the Internet.
It's completely illogical to say that she ran several miles up the road into the notch escaping capture from te cops she was running from, to where the conditions got much worse, much deeper snow, higher snowbanks, much rougher terrain, and THEN entered the woods. I mean come on, does anyone REALLY believe that's what happened?

I don't think I'm gonna change FrmLE's mind, sounds like he figured this out years ago. I'm not trying to convince him of anything, I'm going through his posts critically and showing where he is factually wrong on some major points, major points that he is basing his whole theory on. His story sounds good when you read it, but then when you break it down critically and fact check it it falls apart.
He's still talking about a not TO her boyfriend left on top of her boxes, that was proven to be BS years ago, and saying it is totally wrong bc it implies it is some sort of suicide note/goodbye letter to her bf, which it is not at all. It was a printed up email FROM her bf that had to do with him cheating, big difference. We ahve no idea when that was printed or when those boxes were even packed. There's people who lived on her froor that said they didn't even recognize her, since they all share a bathroom that's a strong indication that she wasn't stayng in her dorm very often, probably off campus with a new bf. Maybe she was finally moving off campus to live with him and still felt gguilty about billy and printed out that email to remind her how big of an asshole he was to her. Maybe that email was printed months before and was somewhere and just didn't end up in the boxes. Maybe it wasn't even on top of the boxes at all, early on the HPD lied about several different things what makes us think they were telling the trutth about that, especially when they already were lying about the content of the note saying it was FROM her, again implying it was a goodbye letter of sorts.
Point being that No useful info can be gleamed from that email that was printed or even the room being packed.

The fact that FrmLE is STILL using that, STILL trying to imply there was some sort of goodbye note to her bf is just very telling of his bias in his writing, I think it's important to refute bunk info like that, and there's a lot more bunk info in his posts. He does make some very good points, but many of his major conslusions are based off of major things that are just factually inaccurate.

And I'm glad you appreciated my use of 'young woman' in there but where were you the other day when FrmLE was calling her a girl the same exact way I was last week, I noticed you were silent about that.. So it doesn't matter what anyone says if theyre saying or believe she's lost in the woods or ran away, but if someone thinks that she probably got murdered then you'll critisize them for anything, no matter how stupid. I got that about right? I don't see how you can even deny that, but i'm sure you will.

Jenkins wrote:

<quoted text>
He's still talking about a not TO her boyfriend left on top of her boxes, that was proven to be BS years ago, and saying it is totally wrong bc it implies it is some sort of suicide note/goodbye letter to her bf, which it is not at all. It was a printed up email FROM her bf that had to do with him cheating, big difference. We ahve no idea when that was printed or when those boxes were even packed. There's people who lived on her froor that said they didn't even recognize her, since they all share a bathroom that's a strong indication that she wasn't stayng in her dorm very often, probably off campus with a new bf. Maybe she was finally moving off campus to live with him and still felt gguilty about billy and printed out that email to remind her how big of an asshole he was to her. Maybe that email was printed months before and was somewhere and just didn't end up in the boxes. Maybe it wasn't even on top of the boxes at all, early on the HPD lied about several different things what makes us think they were telling the trutth about that, especially when they already were lying about the content of the note saying it was FROM her, again implying it was a goodbye letter of sorts.
Point being that No useful info can be gleamed from that email that was printed or even the room being packed.

from a practical point of view, the note matters, and the general public does not know when it was left and the information it contained.

"There's people who lived on her floor that said they didn't even recognizer her, since they all share a bathroom that's a strong indication that she wasn't staying in her dorm very often,..."
i agree.
so, Jenkins, another big piece of missing information is not provided to the public in 10 years, Maura had friends, and certainly SOMEONE...Billy, Kathleen or other friend(s), family member(s) or roommate(s) knew where to find her. her friends have been silenced, long after her disappearance. why?

my point is, there are too many holes in the story to draw conclusions, and so the debate is endless, and imo, pointless, after everyone has stated their positions on the matter more than twice, and there is no new information.

and, no, i didn't jump on FrmLE because he isn't in the habit of referring to Maura as a "young girl", and i also just skimmed his recent posts because they were a review of information he's previously provided.
further, i do read many of your posts, but also skim when they become tedious or repetitive. i'm not convinced by your arguments, and his are presumptions, as well. there will be no payoff to topix posters if and when another piece of information is provided to authorities. so it really doesn't matter whose opinion or best guess is or will be right or wrong.

she was running away from someone or something. who? what? why?
if her father knows, as suggested in a quote by a poster in recent topix pages, then he's not telling.
there are far too many basic questions unanswered to formulate theories that can be proven with certainty. as i said, i think most, if not all, have been covered.

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

<quoted text>
It was Tang with the Red Truck on Rt 112 with the large cheese pizza.

I was going to guess it was Colombo in the rain coat with the giant cigar.

Barbwa WawA wrote:

<quoted text>
I was going to guess it was Colombo in the rain coat with the giant cigar.

Gave up cigars.......

You are so funny....ALDEN OLSEN, BEAGLE, JOHN GREEN AND MORE.

Snowy wrote:

so, Jenkins, another big piece of missing information is not provided to the public in 10 years, Maura had friends, and certainly SOMEONE...Billy, Kathleen or other friend(s), family member(s) or roommate(s) knew where to find her. her friends have been silenced, long after her disappearance. why?

Snowy - I'm trying to make sense out of the packed dorm and $4000 cash. If MM wasn't really living in the dorms and her stuff was packed up I would venture to think that maybe the $4000 was for a private apartment.
Family wouldn't want to explain to anyone why she was leaving the dorms because it would be for the folllowing reasons:
1. If she was leaving on her own it would be because she felt weird about the CC fraud.
2. If she was asked to leave the dorms family would be asked why and they would have to give a reason and any reason wouldn't be good.

I don't think she was "living" with someone, but maybe crashing at different friends dorms, or maybe the people in the dorm just didn't notice her.

I think she had a plan to leave the dorms soon, and maybe after the accident her father decided not to give her the money to move out because he was pissed about the crash.

My opinions and theories are based on my experience doing this work for a long career. I back up my opinions with factual information and examples of why I think the way I do, but hey are only my opinions.

No one knows where Maura is of course. But I do know a couple things for certain.

* Her actions in the weeks prior to her disappearance were quite unusual. This tells me something may have been going on in her life.

* Her actions immediately prior to her disappearance (24- 48 hours) were VERY unusual and irresponsible. This confirms to me that there was something that was affecting her judgment and decision making.

* Her actions at the crash scene and immediately after the crash were extremely unusual, irresponsible, and careless. This, combined with the alcohol present, tells me she was most likely in some degree of emotional distress that was severely affecting her causing her to make irrational and dangerous decisions.

Based on those facts, I conclude that whatever she did after she left the crash site was most likely equally or increasingly irresponsible, irrational, and would not allow me to speculate on what she may do next using the “what would a normal person do?” formula.
Instead, I use the “what would a distressed person do?” formula. And based on that formula I speculate that whatever happened to her was a result of her own actions and of her own accord.

Now that does not mean that some outside factor could not have entered her life at the exact time she was in this emotional distress, however the law of averages says that would be a very unlikely possibility, though not impossible.

Now I also know that the searches conducted for Maura centered around the crash site and the degree of thoroughness decreased the farther from the crash site exponentially. From my experience I have participated in numerous wilderness searches and I know that they are not fool proof and that it is not an exact science. I know the area and know there are countless places where a person could go into the woods and not be detected by footprints. I also know the time between when Maura went missing and when the searches were conducted adversely affected the effectiveness of those searches.

So I know a couple of things. I know that Maura left the crash site on her own, against what would be considered good common sense. I know that she most likely carried alcohol with her when she left and that her state of mind could be considered emotional or mentally distressed.

I know that she was a healthy, athletic person who was capable of running distances in a short amount of time. I know that based on her actions with SBD at the crash site she was making attempt to avoid contact with the police. I know that based on that she would most likely attempt to distance herself from the crash site quickly and would attempt to avoid detection by the police as she was leaving.

So if she was trying to distance herself from the crash site as quickly as possible while trying to avoid being seen by the police, I would speculate that she could have easily gotten 3 plus miles in multiple different directions in less than 30 minutes. I know from my experience that in stressful situations like this that adrenaline is a factor and likely contributed to Maura getting as much as 5 miles from the scene in less than an hour.

I know that after a person experiences an adrenaline dump they then experience an emotional and physical let down, they become emotionally drained and physically exhausted. So if a person were emotionally and physically exhausted, wet from sweat in a cold environment, that sweat would act as a conduit for the cold and would lower the person’s body temperature very quickly.

I also know that alcohol contributes to the body’s physical and emotional letdown, as alcohol is a central nervous system depressant. Maura most likely had alcohol with her when she left the crash site.

********CONTINUED*******

So combine all those factors, Maura is wet, cold, scared, physically tired and emotionally depressed, using alcohol to combat the cold, she is up to 5 miles away from the crash site which is far beyond the area where a search could be considered effective, and she simply says “screw it, my life sucks” and walks into the woods to either lay down and rest or to drink the rest of the bottle and passes out.

In those conditions her body temperature would drop rapidly and the affects of the alcohol and post adrenaline dump would put her to sleep in no time. Hypothermia would take affect almost immediately and she would die. Somewhere in the woods, maybe no more than a 1/4 to 1/2 mile off the road.

It has been proven time and time again that a person can be less than a few hundred feet from a road or trail and not be discovered by many searches. The woman in Waterville was about 20 feet from the trail if I remember, a trail that was walked numerous times by many searches.

That is to me the most likely scenario based on the facts I know, the circumstances that existed, combined with my experience of how people react in similar type situations.

Take it or leave it, to me it makes perfect sense based on 23 years of experience.

[QUOTE who="FrmLE"
Now I also know that the searches conducted for Maura centered around the crash site and the degree of thoroughness decreased the farther from the crash site exponentially. From my experience I have participated in numerous wilderness searches and I know that they are not fool proof and that it is not an exact science. I know the area and know there are countless places where a person could go into the woods and not be detected by footprints. I also know the time between when Maura went missing and when the searches were conducted adversely affected the effectiveness of those searches.
[/QUOTE]

Do you know if bayesian search theory could be applied to a search of this type? If it could, were any of her belongings found on the road or maybe use the CW sighting as the starting point to apply it? I'm just wondering I have never heard the bayesian search theory being applied to a search for a person.

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

<quoted text>
Snowy - I'm trying to make sense out of the packed dorm and $4000 cash. If MM wasn't really living in the dorms and her stuff was packed up I would venture to think that maybe the $4000 was for a private apartment.
Family wouldn't want to explain to anyone why she was leaving the dorms because it would be for the folllowing reasons:
1. If she was leaving on her own it would be because she felt weird about the CC fraud.
2. If she was asked to leave the dorms family would be asked why and they would have to give a reason and any reason wouldn't be good.
I don't think she was "living" with someone, but maybe crashing at different friends dorms, or maybe the people in the dorm just didn't notice her.
I think she had a plan to leave the dorms soon, and maybe after the accident her father decided not to give her the money to move out because he was pissed about the crash.

Lighthouse ~ i'm unsure whether the $4K is related, at all, to the dorm room situation.

it's impossible for the public to know if and when MM lived in her dorm room, if ever, the timing of her un/packing her belongings, where, in fact, she actually resided, and for how long.
does the father know? most likely, especially since he visited her on campus.

it is odd that no one claims to have seen her living in the dorm residence, and there is silence around those circumstances from her friends who would have definitely known where to find her.
now i feel a bit like Jenkins, as i am repeating my thoughts that i originally posted.

who has come forward to say she was crashing at different dorm rooms?
or, who is to say she wasn't living in a residence off-campus? and with whom?

all basic questions that might reveal her motivation for leaving campus to travel to NH, assuming she did.

it is doubtful her father would want to fund a private living situation for her, given there was very likely a room and board contract in place for the semester. if he / they could not afford a decently reliable vehicle, i doubt he'd be throwing away good money to fund / duplicate the on-campus dorm arrangement.

again, there are lots of gaps here, to include whether she was feeding an eating disorder.

and it also seems quite unlikely that one or more of her sibs, her father, Billy, or a friend were unaware of the reason(s) for her distress. it may or may not be the Corolla accident or the CC fraud....it could be something entirely different. that's why i can't launch into a plausible or creative explanation...there are too many missing pieces.

FRMLE why do you think the search for Maura only focoused west the night Maura disappeared? What would make LE search 5 to 6 months after Maura disappeared to the east when this area was totaly ignored the night she disappeared?

FrmLE ~ i agree with all points made and opinions stated in your post #35258 with only one slight disagreement.....

"I know that she was a healthy, athletic person <snip>" ~ FrmLE

maybe not, if, as has been suggested, she suffered from an eating disorder. has that ever been established or disproved?

FrmLE wrote:

********CONTINUED*******
So combine all those factors, Maura is wet, cold, scared, physically tired and emotionally depressed, using alcohol to combat the cold, she is up to 5 miles away from the crash site which is far beyond the area where a search could be considered effective, and she simply says “screw it, my life sucks” and walks into the woods to either lay down and rest or to drink the rest of the bottle and passes out.
In those conditions her body temperature would drop rapidly and the affects of the alcohol and post adrenaline dump would put her to sleep in no time. Hypothermia would take affect almost immediately and she would die. Somewhere in the woods, maybe no more than a 1/4 to 1/2 mile off the road.
It has been proven time and time again that a person can be less than a few hundred feet from a road or trail and not be discovered by many searches. The woman in Waterville was about 20 feet from the trail if I remember, a trail that was walked numerous times by many searches.
That is to me the most likely scenario based on the facts I know, the circumstances that existed, combined with my experience of how people react in similar type situations.
Take it or leave it, to me it makes perfect sense based on 23 years of experience.

optionally, she could have accepted a ride, and then exited that vehicle at another wooded location where the same scenario played out.
isn't that a possibility?

citigirl wrote:

FRMLE why do you think the search for Maura only focoused west the night Maura disappeared? What would make LE search 5 to 6 months after Maura disappeared to the east when this area was totaly ignored the night she disappeared?

I can only speculate because I was not there, but I think the night she disappeared they were not in an intense ‘search’ mode as if they were looking for a lost child in the woods. They had limited information about a person whose car was in an accident and alcohol may have been involved.

They knew this person was conscious, apparently coherent and mobile. Based on that I would guess that they assumed she did what countless other people do in situations similar to this, she left the scene to avoid a DUI and was making her own plans to leave the area. Therefore they probably searched in the direction that she had just come from and the direction in which there was the most civilization, West.

It makes perfect sense and is what I or any other cop would do. As has been said many times, this sort of thing happens very frequently, it is commonplace.

The subsequent searches to the East were based on a totally different scenario with much more information that the Officer on scene had. Now they were dealing with a more traditional “search” as opposed to trying to find someone who was hiding after a car crash. They also had the background of Maura’s situation and most of all, they knew she was actually “Missing” as opposed to “hiding”.
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Snowy wrote:

FrmLE ~ i agree with all points made and opinions stated in your post #35258 with only one slight disagreement.....
"I know that she was a healthy, athletic person <snip>" ~ FrmLE
maybe not, if, as has been suggested, she suffered from an eating disorder. has that ever been established or disproved?

When I used the word ‘healthy’ I meant it in the context of the statement I was making, which was she was healthy enough to have traveled on foot a substantial distance from the crash site in a short amount of time. Compare that to an elderly person or a person with a physical disability or limitation that would prevent them from making a 10 minute mile for several miles.

I did not mean healthy in any broader sense than that she was healthy and able to travel a rough 10 minute mile on foot.

FrmLE wrote:

<quoted text>
.
.
<quoted text>
When I used the word ‘healthy’ I meant it in the context of the statement I was making, which was she was healthy enough to have traveled on foot a substantial distance from the crash site in a short amount of time. Compare that to an elderly person or a person with a physical disability or limitation that would prevent them from making a 10 minute mile for several miles.
I did not mean healthy in any broader sense than that she was healthy and able to travel a rough 10 minute mile on foot.

TY - i stand corrected, and took the meaning out of context to another matter altogether.

Snowy wrote:

<quoted text>
optionally, she could have accepted a ride, and then exited that vehicle at another wooded location where the same scenario played out.
isn't that a possibility?

Yes, that is very possible. Though I do not think it is likely for a couple reasons.

First, with the amount of publicity this has gotten for a fairly small area I doubt that the person who may have given her a ride would not have had knowledge that a woman went missing and put two and two together, though it is absolutely possible just not probable.

Another reason I don’t think that is probable is because Maura was making significant attempt to avoid contact with the police and made no attempt to accept help from those people who were closest to the crash site. It makes sense to me that if she were inclined to accept help she would have accepted it from SBD or another house close by.

However your scenario is possible, I just don’t think it is very likely due to reason #1. If someone picked up a young woman on that desolate road at night that alone would be an unusual event, combine that with the press this has gotten in the last 9 years and it seem unlikely that would not have come out.

I may feel a little different if it were Interstate 93 where people driving by may be from Canada or somewhere else and may not have heard about the case, but as you know that area, Rt 112, Rt 116 is middle of nowhere, you don’t drive through there unless you are live there, for the most part anyway.

But it is possible.

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

<quoted text>
Do you know if bayesian search theory could be applied to a search of this type? If it could, were any of her belongings found on the road or maybe use the CW sighting as the starting point to apply it? I'm just wondering I have never heard the bayesian search theory being applied to a search for a person.

I am not aware of any belongings being found anywhere other than at the crash site in the car. Therefore the only points with which to center a search are at the crash site or possible at the location of the possible sighting by CW.

The problem is the area around the crash site was searched an no sign of entering the woods was detected, therefore you need to consider that she could have traveled anywhere in multiple different directions for as many as ?? miles? Maura could easily have made 10 minute miles at an easy jog, and since there really is no time limit where does that mean she could have gone?

3 miles? 5 miles? 10 miles? Ok so lets take 5 plus miles, in any of those directions. Now any location on any of those roads for up to and exceeding 5 miles can be your center point for a search.

Pull up google maps, plot the crash site, then draw a circle from that crash site in a 5 miles radius. Now take any point within that 5 miles radius on a roadway and try to calculate all the possible areas she could have accessed into the woods from any of those points. SO let’s just say she could only get a mile into the woods, in any direction. So draw a one mile radius from every point on any of those roads in the original 5 mile radius from crash site.

That is where Maura could possibly be. That is the POTENTIAL SEARCH AREA. Now consider she could have easily traveled 10 miles if she were motivated. Now plot a radius from ten miles out.

Now consider that in many cases, people are found WITHIN SEVERAL HUNDRED FEET of populated areas, roadways, or trails even after thorough search efforts. They are often found in areas that had been searched many times prior, they just didn’t see the body. This was the case with the woman in Waterville Valley. Here..


http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/Newsroom/News...

This is often the case and the longer time passes the more the body decomposes the more difficult to recognize it becomes. 9 years? You would probably have to literally trip over a nylon backpack or glass bottle. That is all that is left besides bone.

FrmLE wrote:

My opinions and theories are based on my experience doing this work for a long career. I back up my opinions with factual information and examples of why I think the way I do, but hey are only my opinions.
No one knows where Maura is of course. But I do know a couple things for certain.
* Her actions in the weeks prior to her disappearance were quite unusual. This tells me something may have been going on in her life.
* Her actions immediately prior to her disappearance (24- 48 hours) were VERY unusual and irresponsible. This confirms to me that there was something that was affecting her judgment and decision making.
* Her actions at the crash scene and immediately after the crash were extremely unusual, irresponsible, and careless. This, combined with the alcohol present, tells me she was most likely in some degree of emotional distress that was severely affecting her causing her to make irrational and dangerous decisions.
Based on those facts, I conclude that whatever she did after she left the crash site was most likely equally or increasingly irresponsible, irrational, and would not allow me to speculate on what she may do next using the “what would a normal person do?” formula.
Instead, I use the “what would a distressed person do?” formula. And based on that formula I speculate that whatever happened to her was a result of her own actions and of her own accord.
Now that does not mean that some outside factor could not have entered her life at the exact time she was in this emotional distress, however the law of averages says that would be a very unlikely possibility, though not impossible.
Now I also know that the searches conducted for Maura centered around the crash site and the degree of thoroughness decreased the farther from the crash site exponentially. From my experience I have participated in numerous wilderness searches and I know that they are not fool proof and that it is not an exact science. I know the area and know there are countless places where a person could go into the woods and not be detected by footprints. I also know the time between when Maura went missing and when the searches were conducted adversely affected the effectiveness of those searches.
So I know a couple of things. I know that Maura left the crash site on her own, against what would be considered good common sense. I know that she most likely carried alcohol with her when she left and that her state of mind could be considered emotional or mentally distressed.
I know that she was a healthy, athletic person who was capable of running distances in a short amount of time. I know that based on her actions with SBD at the crash site she was making attempt to avoid contact with the police. I know that based on that she would most likely attempt to distance herself from the crash site quickly and would attempt to avoid detection by the police as she was leaving.
So if she was trying to distance herself from the crash site as quickly as possible while trying to avoid being seen by the police, I would speculate that she could have easily gotten 3 plus miles in multiple different directions in less than 30 minutes. I know from my experience that in stressful situations like this that adrenaline is a factor and likely contributed to Maura getting as much as 5 miles from the scene in less than an hour.
I know that after a person experiences an adrenaline dump they then experience an emotional and physical let down, they become emotionally drained and physically exhausted. So if a person were emotionally and physically exhausted, wet from sweat in a cold environment, that sweat would act as a conduit for the cold and would lower the person’s body temperature very quickly.
I also know that alcohol contributes to the body’s physical and emotional letdown, as alcohol is a central nervous system depressant. Maura most likely had alcohol with her when she left the crash site.

IF it evenwas Maura Murray @ the scene in NH.

citigirl wrote:

FRMLE why do you think the search for Maura only focoused west the night Maura disappeared? What would make LE search 5 to 6 months after Maura disappeared to the east when this area was totaly ignored the night she disappeared?

This is the "BEST QUESTION OF ALL"

WHY did they not search to the EAST......Makes no sense unless they had enough evidence to keep the search focused to the West.

Le's ask Chuck West....I bet He knows....!

John

FrmLE wrote:

<quoted text>
I can only speculate because I was not there, but I think the night she disappeared they were not in an intense ‘search’ mode as if they were looking for a lost child in the woods. They had limited information about a person whose car was in an accident and alcohol may have been involved.
They knew this person was conscious, apparently coherent and mobile. Based on that I would guess that they assumed she did what countless other people do in situations similar to this, she left the scene to avoid a DUI and was making her own plans to leave the area. Therefore they probably searched in the direction that she had just come from and the direction in which there was the most civilization, West.
It makes perfect sense and is what I or any other cop would do. As has been said many times, this sort of thing happens very frequently, it is commonplace.
The subsequent searches to the East were based on a totally different scenario with much more information that the Officer on scene had. Now they were dealing with a more traditional “search” as opposed to trying to find someone who was hiding after a car crash. They also had the background of Maura’s situation and most of all, they knew she was actually “Missing” as opposed to “hiding”.
.
.
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<quoted text>
When I used the word ‘healthy’ I meant it in the context of the statement I was making, which was she was healthy enough to have traveled on foot a substantial distance from the crash site in a short amount of time. Compare that to an elderly person or a person with a physical disability or limitation that would prevent them from making a 10 minute mile for several miles.
I did not mean healthy in any broader sense than that she was healthy and able to travel a rough 10 minute mile on foot.

Any good cop would have also had the smarts enough to know that a person experiencing "IRRATIONAL THINKING" might "JUST HAVE GONE TO THE EAST" So WHY not check that way. Why not have Butch atwood go that way. LE(LOCAL AND NHSP), EMS and FD had just come from that direction.

MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL........

John

Of course you are making an assumption that the area to the East was not checked. How do you know that?

Isn't it possible or even most likely that either Sgt. Smith or Trooper Monaghan drove several miles East on 112 and didn't see amything then turned around? All this talk about "the East the East no one searched to the East"!!

How do you know that isn't where Trooper Monaghan went? Shoot he or Smith could have cruises up 112 to 116 and turned around in what, 5 or 10 minutes?

How do you know? Is seems a big part of your conspiracy theory is based on a complete assumption that may be dispelled simply by reading the Troopers statement, which you are not able to so.

That is some house of cards.