Maura Murray

Frostman wrote:

The real question is: How much reward money is required to have someone come forward with more information that will lead to an arrest and conviction?$250,000?$500,000? More?
Somebody somewhere knows something about the evening Maura disappeared. Someone came home late or not at all and proffered a seemingly legitimate explanation that never sat right with their significant other. An employee was unusually late for work on February 10th or 11th, 2004. A vehicle was fastidiously scrubbed clean. A chainsaw was borrowed. A spouse had an unaccounted for absence. Could hypnosis could help a witness remember a licence plate?
How much money would it take for you to go to LE with possibly incriminating information on a friend, a co-worker or a loved one?

Well, a half-mil (or more) is a refreshing idea. How about cutting out the person in the middle? How about if, for example, I confess to having killed her and I or the person of my choice gets, say, an after-tax million bucks? Kris Kringle could easily donate that much dough to the, um, confession fund.

The details would have to be worked out. I'm unable to provide any specific information like body location, method, weapon, motive, timeline, etc. But in reality police and prosecutors are never too interested in that stuff anyway. They just want SOME kind of confession; a very vague one is fine with them. Prosecutors would rejoice at my utterance of a guilty plea and my agreeing to sufficient facts. Something like "I killed Maura Murray" would be adequate for both them and the judge.

Maura's family and friends - as well as her "family" and "friends" - would take great pleasure in my offering a confession. All their tireless efforts and sense of righteous vengance will have been worth it. They could get their long-sought closure. The NHSP Cold Case Unit could stop wasting so much time investigating this case and move on to other cases (maybe murders with an actual body).

I'd also need to retain book and movie rights. Oh, and the sentencing would have to fairly brief, like unrestricted, unsupervised probation.

Do we have a deal?

Snowy wrote:

<quoted text>
the text is quoted, and the document is linked.

Right, got it... But what does that mean? What is your point, how does the quote support your point? Just throwing out random quotes with links is a thoughtful post?

What is YOUR POINT?? Good god it's like I am trying to teach my ten year old to write a book report all over again.

FrmLE wrote:

<quoted text>
Right, got it... But what does that mean? What is your point, how does the quote support your point? Just throwing out random quotes with links is a thoughtful post?
What is YOUR POINT?? Good god it's like I am trying to teach my ten year old to write a book report all over again.

if you sit with it a bit, reread and, in particular, reference the post to which i replied....you may be enlightened. otherwise, i'm unable to help you out. sorry 'bout that.

FrmLE wrote:

Unless of course you are going with the zombie clone theory, that the girl who he spoke to at the car, the girl who looked like maura, who was driving mauras car and was wearing mauras clothes was in fact an alien body snatcher...... Then yes, anything is possible I guess...

I appreciate this point of view. But respectfully, I'd like to say it's maybe half right.

Let's take the idea that Maura was positively identfied because SBD identified the clothes she was wearing. Unless she was wearing a formal evening dress, I doubt very much SBD or any male would remember what she was wearing. Take, for example, a young couple out to dinner. They've both been sitting at the table for an hour, in a well-lighted restaurant. Take the young man aside and ask him to describe what his date is wearing. Most, not all, but most males will draw a complete blank.

Go to UMass, or any college/university. Stay in one spot where a lot of students walk by during the day. What are they wearing? 3/4 of males (or more) are wearing blue jeans; about 1/2 or more females are also wearing jeans. Most students are wearing some kind of outer jacket with a sweat shirt or sweater underneath. Some are wearing just a shirt under a jacket, depending on the weather.

Again, unless there was something special about the way Maura was dressed, something specific to her (and more than just a UMass sweatshirt), saying that the woman near the Saturn was wearing Maura's clothes is hard to believe.

Since SBD presumably had never seen Maura before 2/9/2004, it's hard to see how he could have positively have identified her, especially after dark. The street lights in that area are limited and I don't think headlights illuminated the person's face.

What exactly did his positive ID consist of? A white female, 60-65 inches tall, with medium length hair? Dressed like a 21 year old? Did he pick her out from an assortment of photos that included only one of Maura among several other photos of other similar looking women? A reliable visual ID would not be impossible, but from what we know, it seems unlikely.

The car, on the other hand, was obviously used by her. But that doesn't mean it was driven there by her.

I agree that she probably drove the car to the WB curve and wandered into the woods where she died, but that's an assertion that doesn't go any further than an assertion. Consideration of other possibilities is warranted.

jwb wrote:

<quoted text>
Frostman, The map link was interesting as it shows a gravel pit there. Wasn't a tip given early on so Fred searched a Gravel Pit. But based on the dissapeared series the pit looked like the pits that are west of the crash site down near the tree farm. I wonder if this area has been searched.

Well, I answered my own question. They did search sand and gravel pits in the area when they were searching within the five mile radius but it wasn't any type of lead. They maybe haven't searched the area (gravel pit) 7.8 miles west where the Poster Mathew stated he found duct tape/Hair. I know exactly where that area is because you can tell that hunters pull into this area. I have seen cars /trucks there before. It is an opening withing a dense overgrown area to each side.

aftermath wrote:

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Snowy,
Try to calm down. What evidence automatically leads you to believe it was not a crime scene? Detective "Snowy" rides again. Maybe you meant to say that it was not immediately treated as a crime scene. Correct? It was initially treated as just one more abandoned vehicle, sliding off the highway. Right? Take a peek at the Supporting Affadavit for Issuance of a Search Warrant that Mr. Renner had located in his investigation. Refer to No. 3, which reads: "A witness at the scene later confirmed that the driver was Murray."

Maybe a confusion of two issues. A car accident in and of itself may or may not be a "crime scene" depending on cause of accident. If the driver was intoxicated, driver can be charged with DUI which is a crime. If driver leaves the scene of an accident -- intoxicated or not the driver can be charged with leaving the scene of an accident, which is a crime. Cause of the accident may be simply reckless driving which is a crime. So in this sense, the known/suspected facts about the car accident suggest a possible/probable crime with regard to that accident.

But what we are concerned with here is not the above per se. The concern in Maura's case is whether a crime was perpetrated AGAINST HER either at the scene of the car accident or minutes later. In that regard, there is no evidence to suggest that a crime occurred against her person. No blood found at or near the scene. No signs of a disturbance or struggle at or near the scene. The fact that she disappeared can be suggestive that a crime occurred, it raises that question. But her disappearance in and of itself is not evidence of any crime. She was an adult, she has the right to disappear if she chooses.

Right now and for the last several years, Maura has been a Schrodinger's Cat ... alive/not alive all in the same thought.

jwb wrote:

<quoted text>
They maybe haven't searched the area (gravel pit) 7.8 miles west where the Poster Mathew stated he found duct tape/Hair. I know exactly where that area is because you can tell that hunters pull into this area. I have seen cars /trucks there before. It is an opening withing a dense overgrown area to each side.

From what I've garnered Matthew's original post caught the attention of the "Find Maura Murray" camp so it is plausible that the area has been given at least a rudimentary going over. If you look at the NHF&G map that entire tract appears to be deemed public/conservation land... ergo available for hunting.

It is entirely possible that the duct tape/hair/cloth was there as a result of a sprained hiker's ankle (or skinned arm or leg) although I think the visual that comes to mind when reading the post is that it was some sort of gag wrapped around a woman's head. And it was most likely observed in November, 2009 which is almost 6 years after MM's disappearance. Matthew might be findable if one were to ask around at the local sporting goods/gun shops.

Advocate wrote:

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Maybe a confusion of two issues. A car accident in and of itself may or may not be a "crime scene" depending on cause of accident. If the driver was intoxicated, driver can be charged with DUI which is a crime. If driver leaves the scene of an accident -- intoxicated or not the driver can be charged with leaving the scene of an accident, which is a crime. Cause of the accident may be simply reckless driving which is a crime. So in this sense, the known/suspected facts about the car accident suggest a possible/probable crime with regard to that accident.
But what we are concerned with here is not the above per se. The concern in Maura's case is whether a crime was perpetrated AGAINST HER either at the scene of the car accident or minutes later. In that regard, there is no evidence to suggest that a crime occurred against her person. No blood found at or near the scene. No signs of a disturbance or struggle at or near the scene. The fact that she disappeared can be suggestive that a crime occurred, it raises that question. But her disappearance in and of itself is not evidence of any crime. She was an adult, she has the right to disappear if she chooses.
Right now and for the last several years, Maura has been a Schrodinger's Cat ... alive/not alive all in the same thought.

well stated; points well made.

i'll state the obvious...at least to my reality.
as a basic premise, a car sliding off the road into a shoulder, or spinning around to reverse direction is not uncommon in VT, ME and NH; the immediate indication would not necessarily point to any particular criminal action.

in an area with spotty cell reception the first assumption by authorities might be that a driver sought shelter and/or assistance at a nearby residence.

for all the reasons you state, the possibility for criminal action by MM or taken against her would not be immediately determined until a cursory search of the vehicle and surrounding area revealed evidence to that effect.

if the car was registered to FM, and the remained driver absent, the registered owner would be contacted after a reasonable period of time. a student parking sticker may or may not be current, but would also be a clue to the identity of the driver. of course, FM wasn't available to answer the call.

it's hard to blame LE, IMO, as her father has, for not IMMEDIATELY finding her. LE are not guardian angels charged with hovering over our personal safety 24/7.

Advocate wrote:

<quoted text>The concern in Maura's case is whether a crime was perpetrated AGAINST HER either at the scene of the car accident or minutes later. In that regard, there is no evidence to suggest that a crime occurred against her person. No blood found at or near the scene. No signs of a disturbance or struggle at or near the scene. The fact that she disappeared can be suggestive that a crime occurred, it raises that question. But her disappearance in and of itself is not evidence of any crime. She was an adult, she has the right to disappear if she chooses.

Right now and for the last several years, Maura has been a Schrodinger's Cat ... alive/not alive all in the same thought.

I might add not just minutes later, but a crime could have happened hours or days later.

And I enjoyed your Schrodinger's cat analogy.

Bill

Frostman wrote:

<quoted text>
It is entirely possible that the duct tape/hair/cloth was there as a result of a sprained hiker's ankle (or skinned arm or leg) although I think the visual that comes to mind when reading the post is that it was some sort of gag wrapped around a woman's head. And it was most likely observed in November, 2009 which is almost 6 years after MM's disappearance. Matthew might be findable if one were to ask around at the local sporting goods/gun shops.

I think the visual is based on the context. If you imagine a kidnapped woman you see the duct tape as something to bind or gag her with. If you are a hiker, you are more likely to see it to help with a sprained ankle or maybe a bad cut.

Bill

Well, I'd use a fake name if I were the one to find The hair and duct tape, simply because some people might recognise my name as being a hunter in the area.

His name could be Mike or anything but Matt is what I'm saying.

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
I think the visual is based on the context. If you imagine a kidnapped woman you see the duct tape as something to bind or gag her with. If you are a hiker, you are more likely to see it to help with a sprained ankle or maybe a bad cut.
Bill

Well, this Matt guy seemed spooked enough to go to police.
If it's even true. Reminds me of the poster who said they saw Maura with a hunk in Canada, so who knows.

MR RENNER, can you find out if this story checks out?

just me wrote:

<quoted text>
Well, this Matt guy seemed spooked enough to go to police.
If it's even true. Reminds me of the poster who said they saw Maura with a hunk in Canada, so who knows.
MR RENNER, can you find out if this story checks out?

I already emailed Mr Renner a couple weeks back on that. Maybe we will hear after christmas.

I know Mr Renner ruled out the littleton Nh Skull, but isn't it odd that nothing formal has been stated
since the discovery last summer.

Regarding LE & possible crime scene:

Consider that you’re a seasoned, dedicated officer of the law in NH on February 9, 2004. A quiet Monday night. All the skiers have floated back to the cities. No imminent snowstorm alerts. You’re called out to a minor single car fender bender 15-minutes away. The car has been carefully locked. No blood. No sign of a struggle. A dozen well-lit homes are within a couple minutes walk. Arrival time: 7:45. Run MA plates. Temperatures near zero (almost balmy by local standards). Other LE and BA (SBD) do a quick scout about. Someone asks dispatch to see if the driver (now known to be a young female) has hitched a lift to Cottage Hospital – this is good country where locals help out others in distress. The call goes out for a tow truck. EMS shows up as well… just to be on the safe side. The filling out of paperwork continues…

Completely unbeknownst to LE et al (at this point) MM has simply walked down the road (E/B) a ways around 7:30 seeking a better cell reception to call AAA again (we’ve all done that when our signal waxes and wanes). MM doesn’t know LE has been called so she figures she’ll pick the car up in the morning or later that night and shoves the rag in the exhaust to prevent the car from being nicked by joy riders. So “Red Truck”(knight in shining armor) maybe posing as LE/EMS/Military (whom she’d possibly obtained ill-fated directions from at the pit-stop) offers a lift back to town.

Nobody in LE yet knows about the rag in the exhaust, a flat (or intentionally punctured) tire or a full-ish tank gas at this time. It’s not until 8:30? when dispatch advises that a dog owner has just called in disturbing/suspicious behavior up on BHR. Vehicles are stopped; tracking dog is dispatched; air search and ground sweeps are dutifully conducted… all according to protocol and what would be reasonably expected. But it’s too late. Days later RO reports “Red Truck” eerily ogling her near SSS.

You can picture how parents of the missing, after-the-fact imagine all of this unfolding and consider how it could have been averted. FM and family have endured more suffering in 7 years than anyone should have to in any earthly incarnation. No matter who sipped from a flask behind the wheel, who had intimate or financial relations with whom and how in-laws and perceived outlaws behaved in the emotional aftermath, Maura’s family still deserve our help finding answers if they are out there… sans judgment.(If you are of the mind that Maura is in Montreal, Montauk or sipping mai tais in Maui please feel free to magnanimously finance an independent investigation – it would probably get us further than bandaging calloused fingertips and replacing worn out keyboards every 6 months.)

Let’s all face it … in our youth and college days (before cell phones and nav. systems) we traipsed around in hand-me-down clunkers on fumes and “a wing and a prayer”. Goodness knows how our parents would have reacted if we’d vanished into the ether. It makes you consider a real-time GPS microchip for all you loved ones, doesn’t it?

Personally, any brief encounters we’ve had with LE in the Northeast have been pleasant. Well, there was that one time when we were pulled over in Western NY for an… ahem… minor speeding infraction and took the opportunity to let our dog stretch his legs while the paperwork was being sorted out. He dragged us over and in a blink lifted his leg on the tire of the NYST’s cruiser. Suffice it to say that it wasn’t received so very well… But the story has been happily immortalized, embellished and retold again and again at Christmastime and family get-togethers. So happy holidays to all!

PS We heard that “Beagle” was going to donate $10 for each post he’s made on Topix and other sites over the years to the Reward fund. In the spirit of the festive season and in celebration of living in a country where we have the privilege of freedom of speech perhaps it would be fitting if we all followed suit!

well, Frosty...recently Topix registered....an elegant missive, but fact-finding, investigation and conclusions lie with the official investigation. Renner, by way of his profession, may uncover and reveal to the public information that is more accurate and verified than in current or previous forums and discussion boards.
if not for the fact,*FACT*, that innocents have been denigrated and their characters assassinated in the name of MM, it would be all well and good to extend sympathy and compassion to whomever is worthy....her family members or those acting on their behalf.
you are probably aware of the 10s of thousands of posts relating to this matter. speculation, rational and irrational, has been extensively covered.
the Topix audience is, in reality, quite limited...you will not "find" her or "discover" the solution to her disappearance here.
without access to MM's background info and details to which the public is not, and perhaps should not, be privy, it's chasing a squirrel or beating a dead horse.

Missing College Student, Happy Ending

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/22/laur...

Frostman wrote:

MM doesn’t know LE has been called so she figures she’ll pick the car up in the morning or later that night and shoves the rag in the exhaust to prevent the car from being nicked by joy riders.

Not that there aren't several holes but lets focus on this one for now. Why does Maura need to shove a rag into the exhaust to prevent the car from being stolen when:

1. A rag in the exhaust would not prevent that from happening.
2. If the car was nick-able, why didn't she just drive it away herself?

Bill

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
Again. Please research instead of just writing the first thing that pops into your head. It was February. There had been many thaw/freeze cycles. There wasn't powder snow, especially near the road. It was mostly hard pack. Ever try to track someone over hard pack? I have. Its just slightly easier than tracking someone over Canadian shield rock.
She knew that someone was going to call the police. SBD said as much when he knew her story was bullsxxt. Who wouldn't think that an accident would draw police? I know all the inebriated people I saw run from accidents. They all knew the police would show up. I don't think Maura was retarded. She knew police would show up. I think she was scared, so she ran.
Again, with the invisible traveling companion.
Bill

There WAS snow in the woods at the time she disappeared. If she ran, she ran on the highway. No way that a 21-year old female would run off into the woods even if she in advance would have known that you and "Snowy" would later be working overtime to push the "she was drunk and wanted to hide, we get'em all the time," theory. SBD did not tell her that he was going to call the police. Running off in the woods? Do you believe she thought she'd come across the yellow brick road in the woods? Land of sunshine, rest and opportunity? She was not stupid. I do agree that many low-functioning folk might try something like running off in the woods (even when they're not drinking). Familiar with the outdoors, Maura was aware of the dangers of ignoring the elements. She was an intelligent young woman who valued her life and would not risk it wandering around in the woods in February(just to avoid the police). She would have considered the consequence of what happens after trotting off into the woods? She would have considered the consequence of choosing that option. Your runaway into the woods theory is as nonsensical as the "Aliens got her" theory.

Snowy wrote:

<quoted text>
"I spoke to a witness who told me there was a young female behind the wheel and there were no other people in the vehicle. He spoke with the female who told him not to call police."
"I made a search of the roadway in the area near the accident.... The driver was not located. A later search of the vehicle indicated the driver was Maura Murray."
..........
hmmm, that's a leap. the driver is missing, but was confirmed to be MM by way of a search? the dots aren't connecting.
https://docs.google.com/viewer...

Snowy,
Obviously you would have great difficulty connecting the dots even with a magnifying glass. I suspect that the dots do not connect for you much of the time. Obviously, you must have been involved in the search in some capacity.