Maura Murray

I am not doubting your knowledge Bill.

But....I have seen the car many times myself and have several pix. It still sits in the same spot @ NHSP Troop F in Twin. Go look.

Good Night

K-9 handler wrote:

As I Recall.........Another neighbor who was interviewed had stated that "Butch had backed into his spot instead of just pulling in like usual."

One last comment. I remember this comment and I know this person is wrong. I haven't gone through this area lots of times but I know for certain he must have done that before because I remember the first time I went through that area, well before the Maura accident, I went through there and his bus scared the crap out of me. The direction that I came the bus appeared out of no where in my view and I thought it was pulling out because it came up so fast and the road is right across the street and it was faced nose out. It didn't scare the crap out of me the second, third, etc times, but I did notice it. He didn't always park nose in. For sure he didn't always park nose in.

Bill

WTF-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
One last comment. I remember this comment and I know this person is wrong. I haven't gone through this area lots of times but I know for certain he must have done that before because I remember the first time I went through that area, well before the Maura accident, I went through there and his bus scared the crap out of me. The direction that I came the bus appeared out of no where in my view and I thought it was pulling out because it came up so fast and the road is right across the street and it was faced nose out. It didn't scare the crap out of me the second, third, etc times, but I did notice it. He didn't always park nose in. For sure he didn't always park nose in.
Bill

You're absolutely right. He would have had to back out into the road on that curve if he drove nose in.

Here is a funny bit of information I just discovered in the accident report. It states that in the boxes where Summoned, Arrested or Charged is listed. There is a charge of "conduct after accide" so I am assuming that there was a pending charge against her. There is also a box checked MVR RECOM. I don't know what that means.

I do know for years it was insisted that there were no charges being filed against Maura. Clearly for years there was something listed in the report.

The reason I started looking at that crap again is because of the stated clear times. Out of the documents I still have laying on file I don't seem to have the dispatch report. I was looking for the clear times. The ones reported by K9 don't seem right to me. I could be wrong but I thought that CS cleared much, much later than 1946. Can anyone take a look at the dispatch log? Accident occurred at 1927 (7:27 PM) CS dispatched 1935 arrived at 1945. Ambulance arrived at 1956. I don't have the cleared times, those are in the dispatch log.

Bill

WTF-the-original wrote:

Here is a funny bit of information I just discovered in the accident report. It states that in the boxes where Summoned, Arrested or Charged is listed. There is a charge of "conduct after accide" so I am assuming that there was a pending charge against her. There is also a box checked MVR RECOM. I don't know what that means.
I do know for years it was insisted that there were no charges being filed against Maura. Clearly for years there was something listed in the report.
The reason I started looking at that crap again is because of the stated clear times. Out of the documents I still have laying on file I don't seem to have the dispatch report. I was looking for the clear times. The ones reported by K9 don't seem right to me. I could be wrong but I thought that CS cleared much, much later than 1946. Can anyone take a look at the dispatch log? Accident occurred at 1927 (7:27 PM) CS dispatched 1935 arrived at 1945. Ambulance arrived at 1956. I don't have the cleared times, those are in the dispatch log.
Bill

Perhaps from a first accident that night?

Sara wrote:

<quoted text>
Perhaps from a first accident that night?

I don't think so. This report is on the accident near the corner where the car was left at. I suspect that because of Maura leaving the scene of this accident it appears that CS was going to charge Maura with some charge relating to her "conduct after accide"nt. Just my thought based upon what is written in the accident report.

As far as MVR RECOM box that is checked I assume MVR is motor vehicle registry or records but RECOM I don't know.

Anyone?? Bueller??

Bill

motor vehicle registry recommended?

It says conduct after accident? From that night she vanished?

I don't have the report on this pc and was wondering if they made note to
conduct something AFTER accident.
Not that they questioned her conduct?

just me wrote:

I don't have the report on this pc and was wondering if they made note to
conduct something AFTER accident.
Not that they questioned her conduct?

When you get a chance to review where it is typed.

It appears to me to be saying that the box indicating she being summoned wasn't checked. Of course not, she wasn't there. The box indicating that she was arrested wasn't checked either, again, she wasn't there but there was a charge typed in and it was listed as "conduct after accide". It is in the section for the driver and is listed as Maura. You and anyone else can tell us what you think if you review the sheet.

Bill

OK I just found the dispatch log.

It lists EMS clear of the scene at 2002
It lists Fire clear the scene at 2049
It lists Police clear the scene at 2126

I'm not sure where K9 got his times.- Looking at it again, he must mean that CS is listed as on scene at 1946. I think we are just using slightly different terminology.

Bill

WTF-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
When you get a chance to review where it is typed.
It appears to me to be saying that the box indicating she being summoned wasn't checked. Of course not, she wasn't there. The box indicating that she was arrested wasn't checked either, again, she wasn't there but there was a charge typed in and it was listed as "conduct after accide". It is in the section for the driver and is listed as Maura. You and anyone else can tell us what you think if you review the sheet.
Bill

How could you charge someone with anything if you hadn't seen them?
Agreed the accident scene with alcohol bottles could have been a potential DUI, but since he never saw Maura, how could he know anything about her conduct after the accident? For all he knows it may not even have been her and to charge someone you haven't identified yet seems to be jumping the gun a bit.

Sara wrote:

<quoted text>
How could you charge someone with anything if you hadn't seen them?
Agreed the accident scene with alcohol bottles could have been a potential DUI, but since he never saw Maura, how could he know anything about her conduct after the accident? For all he knows it may not even have been her and to charge someone you haven't identified yet seems to be jumping the gun a bit.

Leaving the scene of an accident is a crime in most states when property damage over a certain amount occurs or if there is an personal injury. Even if it wasn't a crime in NH she certainly didn't file any report within the required time according to some interpretations. So this along with so much is up for possible debate. I am just listing and interpreting what I see on the report.

And don't forget, a charge, if it is that, isn't a conviction either.

Bill

K-9 handler wrote:

Smith would have had to arrive @ the scene, check out the car, go to the Westmans and then go see Butch all within 6 minutes, I quite doubt that happened. He would have had to walk to the Atwoods residence so he could leave his cruiser at the scene with Lights on for saftey purposes.
EMT did not arrive til 7:56 and FD did not arrive til 7:57. So there had to be someone else there to watch the scene if Smith in fact did drive his car the short distance to Atwoods.
Between the time Atwood left the scene and Smith arrived is approx. 6 to 10 minutes. So in this time period "MAURA VANISHED" Atwood said maybe 4 or 5 vehicles went by in this time but could not describe any of them due to the lighting.
What IF while Atwood was driving to his house to park the bus one of the vehicles stopped and picked up Maura w/o Atwood noticing. This is very possible because he would have been watching the road in front of him and then He got to his driveway, pulled in towards the house (NO VISIBILITY) and then backed in next to the garage where he would be able to see the acc. scene again. He then went to the house to call 911, again NO VISIBILITY of the scene.
Someone IN A VEHICLE picked Maura up in that short time period. Extensive searches showed NO SIGNS of anyone walking into the woods or down the road or over the guardrails along the river. This area has been searched extensively over and over by Search and rescue teams w/ dogs along w/ F & G and NHSP as well as Local LE, Relatives and friends of Maura and local residents also.. It seems highly unlikely that Maura is anywhere in this area.

Have you told her Dad that ? They always comment on how he still goes up there every weekend to search? Why didn't they focus on Amherst? and her prior life? what made her break down during that call at work ??? where was the last atm she visited? was she alone? did the liquor store recognize her? did she visit frequently?

WTF-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
Leaving the scene of an accident is a crime in most states when property damage over a certain amount occurs or if there is an personal injury. Even if it wasn't a crime in NH she certainly didn't file any report within the required time according to some interpretations. So this along with so much is up for possible debate. I am just listing and interpreting what I see on the report.
And don't forget, a charge, if it is that, isn't a conviction either.
Bill

I understand this, but my point is...if he didn't SEE her, how did he know it was her FOR SURE to charge her? Don't you have to know for sure that person was with 100% certainty behind that wheel before you charge them?

Since the whole 'crime' thing seems to be an issue, here is NH law.

Conduct and Reporting After a Motor Vehicle Accident
Section 264:25
264:25 Conduct After Accident.–
I. The driver of a vehicle who knows or should have known that he or she has just been involved in any accident which resulted in death, personal injury or damages to property, shall immediately stop such vehicle at the scene of the accident and give to the driver or owner of any other vehicle involved in said accident, and to any person injured, and to the owner of any property damaged, the driver's name and address, driver's license number, the registration number of the vehicle and the name and address of each occupant. If by reason of injury, absence or removal from the place of the accident, or other cause, such injured person, or driver of such other vehicle, or owner of the property damaged, or any of them, is unable to understand or receive the information required in this section, such information shall be given to any uniformed police officer arriving at the scene of the accident or immediately to a police officer at the nearest police station. Any person driving a vehicle which is in any manner involved in an accident or any person who owns a vehicle which was illegally parked when it was involved in an accident shall within 15 days after such accident report in writing to the division the facts required hereunder together with a statement of the circumstances if any person is injured or killed, or if damage to property is in excess of $1,000, unless the accident is investigated by a police officer, in which case a report filed by such officer shall satisfy the requirements of this section; provided, however, that any person not otherwise required by this paragraph to file a report, who owns a vehicle which was involved in an accident, may file a report as provided by this paragraph. Voluntary intoxication shall not constitute a defense in the matter of knowledge under the provisions of this section. All reports, filed as required in this paragraph, shall be in the form prescribed by the director and shall contain information to enable the division to determine whether the requirements for the deposit of security under RSA 264:3 are inapplicable by reason of the existence of insurance or other exceptions specified in that chapter. If such driver is physically or mentally incapable of making such report, the owner of the vehicle involved in such accident or the owner's representative shall, after learning of the accident, forthwith make such report. The driver or the owner shall furnish such additional relevant information as the division shall require. The provisions of this section shall be of general application and shall not be restricted to a way as defined in RSA 259.

Again, reasonable people would conclude that the person driving and crashing Maura's car would most likely be Maura. It would be the responsibility of others to prove that incorrect, not the other way around. Let us just say that he would likely have a very high degree of suspicion that it was Maura that he would have ticketed.

Bill

just me wrote:

Since the whole 'crime' thing seems to be an issue, here is NH law.
Conduct and Reporting After a Motor Vehicle Accident
Section 264:25
264:25 Conduct After Accident.–
I. The driver of a vehicle who knows or should have known that he or she has just been involved in any accident which resulted in death, personal injury or damages to property, shall immediately stop such vehicle at the scene of the accident and give to the driver or owner of any other vehicle involved in said accident, and to any person injured, and to the owner of any property damaged, the driver's name and address, driver's license number, the registration number of the vehicle and the name and address of each occupant. If by reason of injury, absence or removal from the place of the accident, or other cause, such injured person, or driver of such other vehicle, or owner of the property damaged, or any of them, is unable to understand or receive the information required in this section, such information shall be given to any uniformed police officer arriving at the scene of the accident or immediately to a police officer at the nearest police station. Any person driving a vehicle which is in any manner involved in an accident or any person who owns a vehicle which was illegally parked when it was involved in an accident shall within 15 days after such accident report in writing to the division the facts required hereunder together with a statement of the circumstances if any person is injured or killed, or if damage to property is in excess of $1,000, unless the accident is investigated by a police officer, in which case a report filed by such officer shall satisfy the requirements of this section; provided, however, that any person not otherwise required by this paragraph to file a report, who owns a vehicle which was involved in an accident, may file a report as provided by this paragraph. Voluntary intoxication shall not constitute a defense in the matter of knowledge under the provisions of this section. All reports, filed as required in this paragraph, shall be in the form prescribed by the director and shall contain information to enable the division to determine whether the requirements for the deposit of security under RSA 264:3 are inapplicable by reason of the existence of insurance or other exceptions specified in that chapter. If such driver is physically or mentally incapable of making such report, the owner of the vehicle involved in such accident or the owner's representative shall, after learning of the accident, forthwith make such report. The driver or the owner shall furnish such additional relevant information as the division shall require. The provisions of this section shall be of general application and shall not be restricted to a way as defined in RSA 259.

This looks like the charge. Thanks "just me".

Bill

You're welcome.

I think it may have something to do with any damages done to property, public or private, and insurance.
keep getting this

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/NHTO...
when I look for RSA 259 for NH.
Not sure if you can draw from it and am busy now until later.

Hi all,the accident report was not filled out for 5 days after the saturn was found.At the very least the Saturn was illegally parked as per winter parking codes in the area.Still wondering how and where John Kapp Monaghan was and when he was a state trooper.take care philip