Maura Murray

Aw c'mon... I think we all enjoy parlour games, that's (in part) why we're all still here. Charades. Balderdash. Snakes & Ladders. Throw in some facts and innuendo, crank up the salad spinner and voila!

Random musings from a newbie.

best Topix antidote; equally gratifying, less annoying....

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Detective Columbo,

Just a quick query if you care? I see that you posted in the Renner blog that you believe that Maura would have been found in the woods if she had gone into the woods to die. Your exact quote is here:

It has been 8 yrs. and the likelihood of someone finding the body would be pretty high if she was in this area.

You have said that you are a former LE in the area so one would assume you know the area and also you have been on searches for persons in the Mountains. May I ask, what do you base your statement above on?

Just asking you to explain a little bit, if you would:

the approximate area the search would cover,

the area that has been searched to date,

by whom and with what resources were available,

and maybe some similar type searches that make you believe that if she had left the crash scene and had moved by her own power to a location in the woods she would have been found by now.

I know thats a long sentence and I apologize, but for a former cop in that area, your opinion drastically contradicts my experience in searches in similar areas..

The ones that come to mind are the search for Patric McCarthy, the search for the rather large Jet Plane that crashed in the Mountains years back, the search for the elderly woman in Waterville Valley..

Thanks, if you care to respond.

Here is the link to the woman who went missnig in Waterville Valley.
http://www.wildnh.com/Newsroom/News_2010/News...

This was a 85 year old woman who walked away from her home in Waterville Valley. She went missing on September 7, 2010. She was found October 28th, a month and half later. She was about 3 miles from where she went missing in an area that had been searched multiple times.

For comparison, here are a few contrasts between poor Mrs. Upton and Maura Murray.

Upton was 85 years old and much less able bodied than Maura Murray who was a track star and able runner.

Upton was found 3 miles from point where she went missing. Searchers were looking for Upton within hours of when she went missing. No searches were made for Maura for at least 48 hours, if I recall.

The search for Mrs. Upton was MASSIVE, to put it mildly. Here is a link where over 150 searchers were walking shoulder to shoulder in the area she went missing. http://www.wmur.com/r/24970992/detail.html

MANCHESTER, N.H.-- A team of 150 people gathered Saturday to search for a Waterville Valley woman missing since last Tuesday.
The New Hampshire Fish and Game Department said it is utilizing everything from horses to helicopters in their search for 85-year-old Beth Upton. Upton was last seen going for a walk in a heavily wooded area, according to her family.
Teams are covering a mile-and-a-half area by walking shoulder to shoulder. A K9 team was expected to join the search Saturday night.

The area where Mrs. Upton went missing was significantly smaller than the possible area where Maura could have gone. If anyone knows Waterville Valley, it really is a bowl shaped valley and most of those Mountains are over 2500 ft or more...

For comparison,

the area where Mrs. Upton went missing was much smaller,

much less confined than where Maura went missing due to the Valley geography,

Upton wasan 85 yr old woman and much less capable of traveling overland than Maura,

Upton was searched for within hours of when she went missing whereas Maura was not even reported missing for a day or so,

The search for Upton was absolutely massive and continuous from within hours of when she went missing whereas the searches for Maura have been much smaller,

Upton was found about a mile and half as the crow flies, or 3 miles by foot, of where she went missing. Maura could have gone 3 miles in less than 60 minutes if she wanted to.

The terrain in Waterville is much steeper than where Maura went missing,

And despite all this, the massive search day and night, Mrs. Upton's body was not found until almost a month and half later and was found almost by accident...

So given that, how can anyone say that if Maura went into the woods and succumbed to the elements that she would have been found by now?????

sorry to input on your question to columbo

If it were spring or summer i would think that the search area would be an expanded one as she would have been able to cover more terrain if she wanted to wander off 112. If she had running shoes, I doubt very much she would wander to far into the snow.

WATERVILLE VALLEY – The body of a woman found Wednesday afternoon off a cross-country ski trail in a remote and wooded section of this community has been positively identified as Beth Upton, who left for a walk Sept. 7 and was not seen again.

"I feel like I've been holding my breath for seven weeks and now I can breathe," said Upton's daughter, Diane Best, who vowed not to leave her mother's summer home until she was found.

Upton was a longtime resident of Waterville Valley and was active in the community, serving on the planning board and the conservation commission. About 15 years ago, she married retired Concord attorney Frederic Upton and together they spent summers in town.

According to Fish and Game Lt. Todd Bogardus, the state's medical examiner positively identified Beth Upton.

"There is no foul play, but the cause of death is undetermined," he said.

Beth Upton, 85, set off for a walk mid-afternoon on Sept. 7 and when she did not return later in the afternoon, her husband reported her overdue. An intensive, six-day search followed that scoured the resort town and reached three miles or more up the rugged mountain trails that head into the White Mountain National Forest.

"As a crow flies, she was about a mile and half from her home and about three miles by foot," Bogardus said. "It was in an area where teams searched."

Her body was found nearly three miles up Livermore Road and then on the intermediate cross-country ski trail, Lower Snow's Mountain.

Best's partner, Christopher Lawrence, said the spot was one in which he had come within 300 feet of during the couple's many searches of the area.

They had enlisted in the help of Deb Pullman of Maine Search and Rescue Dogs, who had come to town several towns to help with the search.

At about 3 p.m., Wednesday, she and Waterville Valley Public Safety Chief David Noyes were returning from a search.

"She happened to see something white in the trees," Lawrence said.

With most of the foliage off the trees, it was easier to see deeper into what had been thick woods in early September.

Best and Lawrence said they are grateful for the many people who turned out over the last two months to help search.

I would think that a backpack, piece of clothing or bottle of booze would have been found if she was slightly off the road.

The plane crash was way inland so that is not the best comparison to use.

FrmLE wrote:

Here is the link to the woman who went missnig in Waterville Valley.
http://www.wildnh.com/Newsroom/News_2010/News...
This was a 85 year old woman who walked away from her home in Waterville Valley. She went missing on September 7, 2010. She was found October 28th, a month and half later. She was about 3 miles from where she went missing in an area that had been searched multiple times.
For comparison, here are a few contrasts between poor Mrs. Upton and Maura Murray.
Upton was 85 years old and much less able bodied than Maura Murray who was a track star and able runner.
Upton was found 3 miles from point where she went missing. Searchers were looking for Upton within hours of when she went missing. No searches were made for Maura for at least 48 hours, if I recall.
The search for Mrs. Upton was MASSIVE, to put it mildly. Here is a link where over 150 searchers were walking shoulder to shoulder in the area she went missing. http://www.wmur.com/r/24970992/detail.html
MANCHESTER, N.H.-- A team of 150 people gathered Saturday to search for a Waterville Valley woman missing since last Tuesday.
The New Hampshire Fish and Game Department said it is utilizing everything from horses to helicopters in their search for 85-year-old Beth Upton. Upton was last seen going for a walk in a heavily wooded area, according to her family.
Teams are covering a mile-and-a-half area by walking shoulder to shoulder. A K9 team was expected to join the search Saturday night.
The area where Mrs. Upton went missing was significantly smaller than the possible area where Maura could have gone. If anyone knows Waterville Valley, it really is a bowl shaped valley and most of those Mountains are over 2500 ft or more...

is there a particular conclusion you wish to bring forward about the timing of the search and relative resources applied to searching for MM?

i'm still stuck on the presence of an abandoned car in the country during winter months; that the finding and circumstance is not unusual. i can't imagine the first presumption by LE would be that someone has been abducted, and that SOP would demand a search/swat team be initiated within hours....unless, of course, authorities had a definitive clue via BOLO. using those resources is costly and must be justified.

cars are abandoned at the side of the road all across this country, and at various locations...city, suburbs, and country. not every breakdown or collision requires an immediate search in the absence of a driver and passenger, aside from a reasonable look/see. the business of finding "missing persons" in recent years has become better refined with increased technical options, and with the awareness that not every missing person is immediately considered to be a runaway or suicide.

still, are there not procedures/waiting times mandated for authorities to follow before making a determination that someone has gone missing before sending in search teams?

jwb wrote:

If she had running shoes, I doubt very much she would wander to far into the snow.

You make so many speculative comments jwb, "she would have done this, she wouldn't have done that........" "If she had running shoes.." Do you know what she was wearing? Did she have boots?

How can you say what she would have done, or what she wouldn't have done? Was she acting rational? Did her behavior in the days prior to this seem rational to you? Leaving the scene of an accident? Refusing assistance from passerby?

Try to think outside your bias for a second, she was erratic and irrational, nothing that you say she would have done or wouldn't have done is relevant here, you can not use that as proof of anything in this case.

Suppose this, suppose she was wearing running shoes, she could have covered say....... 5 miles down the road in what, about an hour? Then she could have gone just a few hundred yards into the wood with her booze, found a place to rest, sweaty and tired, scared and depressed, had a few more drinks, started to get cold and fell asleep.....

Just like that, 5 miles from the Saturn, in less than an hour and half from when she crashed, in an area that has not been searched at all.... Just like Mrs. Upton, right there where people have walked by but have not seen.....

Think about how many times people walked right by Mrs. Upton and did not see here....

FrmLE wrote:

For comparison,
the area where Mrs. Upton went missing was much smaller,
much less confined than where Maura went missing due to the Valley geography,
Upton wasan 85 yr old woman and much less capable of traveling overland than Maura,
Upton was searched for within hours of when she went missing whereas Maura was not even reported missing for a day or so,
The search for Upton was absolutely massive and continuous from within hours of when she went missing whereas the searches for Maura have been much smaller,
Upton was found about a mile and half as the crow flies, or 3 miles by foot, of where she went missing. Maura could have gone 3 miles in less than 60 minutes if she wanted to.
The terrain in Waterville is much steeper than where Maura went missing,
And despite all this, the massive search day and night, Mrs. Upton's body was not found until almost a month and half later and was found almost by accident...
So given that, how can anyone say that if Maura went into the woods and succumbed to the elements that she would have been found by now?????

***So given that, how can anyone say that if Maura went into the woods and succumbed to the elements that she would have been found by now?????***
They can't in all honesty.JMO

Snowy wrote:

<quoted text>
is there a particular conclusion you wish to bring forward about the timing of the search and relative resources applied to searching for MM?

Nope, my conclusion is simply that Mrs. Upton was searched for within hours of when she went missing by a huge search party and she still wasn't found til 7 weeks later... In an area smaller than where Maura went missing...

As far as the time it took to search for Maura, let me say this.... In my career as a cop, I would say that there were at least several hundred cases where a person abandonded a car after a crash, whether they were drinking or not..

If Law Enforcement cnducted a massive search for every person who abandoned a car, your taxes would probably multiply by about a thousand. It is impractical, it happens al the time, nearly every single weekend really. Someone crashes after drinking, leaves the scene and calls the next day. Very routine in fact.

To all those people suggesting LE should have searched sooner for a girl who crashed her car, refused help from a passerby, and then fled the scene on foot within minutes of a cop arriving?

Absurd, she left for a reason and it is impractical to suggest that cops should have mounted a search immediately. If you do, then don't bitch when your taxes quadruple because we are searching for every drunk who wants to avoid a DWI pinch...

Detective Columbo,

Just a quick query if you care? I see that you posted in the Renner blog that you believe that Maura would have been found in the woods if she had gone into the woods to die. Your exact quote is here:

"It has been 8 yrs. and the likelihood of someone finding the body would be pretty high if she was in this area...."

Nothing personal, but I have doubts about your credentials based on your statements. What searcges have you been on that are equivilant?

jwb wrote:

I would think that a backpack, piece of clothing or bottle of booze would have been found if she was slightly off the road.

How far off the road? Maybe 20 feet? How about 500 yards, or maybe quarter mile?

Let me quote the article where Mrs. Uptons daughter comments on where her Mother was found..

"Best's partner, Christopher Lawrence, said the spot was one in which he had come within 300 feet of during the couple's many searches of the area."

300 feet, thats how close SHE came when searching for her mother, MILTIPLE TIMES.

Could Maura have walked 300 feet into the woods?

Again, nothing personal here but this is the reason why I have such a disconnect with people who have never been on searches but comment that "she would have been found by now..."

How many searches have you been on?

FrmLE wrote:

Detective Columbo,
Just a quick query if you care? I see that you posted in the Renner blog that you believe that Maura would have been found in the woods if she had gone into the woods to die. Your exact quote is here:
"It has been 8 yrs. and the likelihood of someone finding the body would be pretty high if she was in this area...."
Nothing personal, but I have doubts about your credentials based on your statements. What searcges have you been on that are equivilant?

Not to pile on but he also says he has a accident reconstruction expert who says that Maura's car did NOT have damage consistent with a collision with trees as listed in the police report.

You bring up many, many points that have been brought up before. I have repeatedly explained the difficulty in searching terrain like the areas in question. Some understand, others do no. Very valid questions. The Lear jet is a very valid case. Huge metal object falls out of the sky. Found by accident. I did searching for that as well.

Bill

If Renners information is accurate and Maura might have been pregnant, studies done on this issue show that pregnancy is actually correlated with a dramatic decreased rate of suicide compared to non-pregnant women. This has led some psychiatrists to suggest that pregnancy somehow serves a psychologically protective role. The presence of another person to "live for" appears to reduce the suicidal impulses of a mentally disturbed or deeply depressed woman.

So, if we believe it was her Internet search on fetal alcohol syndrome, then she is demonstrating an act of curiosity, and concern for her unborn baby.

Why would she do that if she intended to end her life?

FrmLE wrote:

For comparison,
the area where Mrs. Upton went missing was much smaller,
much less confined than where Maura went missing due to the Valley geography,
Upton wasan 85 yr old woman and much less capable of traveling overland than Maura,
Upton was searched for within hours of when she went missing whereas Maura was not even reported missing for a day or so,
The search for Upton was absolutely massive and continuous from within hours of when she went missing whereas the searches for Maura have been much smaller,
Upton was found about a mile and half as the crow flies, or 3 miles by foot, of where she went missing. Maura could have gone 3 miles in less than 60 minutes if she wanted to.
The terrain in Waterville is much steeper than where Maura went missing,
And despite all this, the massive search day and night, Mrs. Upton's body was not found until almost a month and half later and was found almost by accident...
So given that, how can anyone say that if Maura went into the woods and succumbed to the elements that she would have been found by now?????

I totally agree that it is not easy to find a missing person in this area but after 8 years you would think something would have surfaced if she weren't buried. I doubt however that she could have been buried with the ground being snow covered and frozen.

FRMLE: Do you know if a search has been done on the other side of 116 down towards the campground? If so how far down has a search been done?

thank you

FrmLE wrote:

<quoted text>
How far off the road? Maybe 20 feet? How about 500 yards, or maybe quarter mile?
Let me quote the article where Mrs. Uptons daughter comments on where her Mother was found..
"Best's partner, Christopher Lawrence, said the spot was one in which he had come within 300 feet of during the couple's many searches of the area."
300 feet, thats how close SHE came when searching for her mother, MILTIPLE TIMES.
Could Maura have walked 300 feet into the woods?
Again, nothing personal here but this is the reason why I have such a disconnect with people who have never been on searches but comment that "she would have been found by now..."
How many searches have you been on?

she could walk 300 feet into the woods but I find it highly unlikely that she would walk 300 feet into the woods in the middle of winter with sneakers on. For what purpose would she walk into the woods 300 feet?

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
You bring up many, many points that have been brought up before. I have repeatedly explained the difficulty in searching terrain like the areas in question.

LOL, yep but I am waiting on a delayed flight in a busy terminal, lol, idle hands make plenty of posts...

FrmLE wrote:

<quoted text>
To all those people suggesting LE should have searched sooner for a girl who crashed her car, refused help from a passerby, and then fled the scene on foot within minutes of a cop arriving?
Absurd, she left for a reason and it is impractical to suggest that cops should have mounted a search immediately. If you do, then don't bitch when your taxes quadruple because we are searching for every drunk who wants to avoid a DWI pinch...

thank you for clarifying. i totally, 100% agree with your conclusion(s).