Maura Murray

Frostman wrote:

<quoted text>
No denial, just show me the proof. All that's out there is Scarinza saying there was a Coke bottle that was observed by LE, maybe with a red liquid, that smelled like alcohol. This is bottle is missing, maybe that one, it's all accounted for, perhaps consumed by MM, maybe not.
If you crashed your car and you'd been drinking you would put the booze in the trunk, down or wheel well or at least clean up the mess and throw away the evidence in the bush away from the car not right by the car or under it. You'd have to figure that the police will be along sooner or later.
Or at least that's what I'd do if I waz toad-alley fish-faced end kun't dwive me kaar...

You haven't a clue. And a bottle which had a liquid that smelled like alcohol was located outside the car. And an open box, and splashing was inside the car. Again, patterns. Read my previous material about patterns.

And you don't know what you would do. People panic. People make stupid choices. Sometimes they even know that they are stupid but can't seem to help themselves. So I'll say it again, you haven't a clue.

Bill

Frostman wrote:

<quoted text>
No denial, just show me the proof. All that's out there is Scarinza saying there was a Coke bottle that was observed by LE, maybe with a red liquid, that smelled like alcohol. This is bottle is missing, maybe that one, it's all accounted for, perhaps consumed by MM, maybe not.
If you crashed your car and you'd been drinking you would put the booze in the trunk, down or wheel well or at least clean up the mess and throw away the evidence in the bush away from the car not right by the car or under it. You'd have to figure that the police will be along sooner or later.
Or at least that's what I'd do if I waz toad-alley fish-faced end kun't dwive me kaar...

Did he say "maybe" the bottle had red liquid in it? I thought he said it "had" red liquid in it that smelled of alcohol.
Some people that drink and drive either keep their drink of choice between their legs or in the cup holder in the console. If this was the case (and I'm not saying it was) it would be very easy for the bottle/cup to get jarred onto the floor and kicked outside accidently if you hit something and were trying to get out of the vehicle.
I doubt that sticking around to hide anything or clean up a mess was high on her priority list after the SBD stopped to see if she needed help/ JMHO

WTH-the-original wrote:

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You haven't a clue. And a bottle which had a liquid that smelled like alcohol was located outside the car. And an open box, and splashing was inside the car. Again, patterns. Read my previous material about patterns.
And you don't know what you would do. People panic. People make stupid choices. Sometimes they even know that they are stupid but can't seem to help themselves. So I'll say it again, you haven't a clue.
Bill

I've read your information on patterns, it makes a lot of sense.

So based on professional experience you believe that the Coke bottle was MM's and that the box of wine had been in the front seat and was damaged by the airbag (spout must have been open?) and then placed behind the driver's seat? And I'm guessing wine must have been missing from the box?

Frostman wrote:

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I've read your information on patterns, it makes a lot of sense.
So based on professional experience you believe that the Coke bottle was MM's and that the box of wine had been in the front seat and was damaged by the airbag (spout must have been open?) and then placed behind the driver's seat? And I'm guessing wine must have been missing from the box?

I don't know why the box would have been in the front seat. It could have been in the rear the whole time. Some of this is with broad strokes. From the information we know I can't tell you her nail color. But I can see broader patterns. If you are wondering where the splashing inside the car came from I would imagine that the airbag and collision and the open container she was either holding or in her drink carrier had a lot to do with that.

And yes, I still maintain that the person seen driving Maura's car that looked like Maura and had the contents in the car that Maura was known to possess was almost certainly Maura. And it would have been Maura whose bottle was near the car as well. My personal belief is anyone that wants to dispute that idea (not saying you do) needs to bring strong proof to rebut that idea. Occam, again. The simplest way to make sense out of this with the fewest machinations of theory is that it was Maura in the car.

Bill

And I am almost certain that we heard that the box of wine had been open. Other long timers here should be able to verify if I am remembering this correctly. Speak up if I am not remembering correctly.

Bill

WTH-the-original wrote:

And I am almost certain that we heard that the box of wine had been open. Other long timers here should be able to verify if I am remembering this correctly. Speak up if I am not remembering correctly.
Bill

You are correct. That is what we heard.

WTH-the-original wrote:

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Speaking for myself. I have actually done this. I have acutally been in searches. I have been in the woods. I have been out at night, during sleet and rain. I have hard won knowledge based upon actual experience. I have the respect, acknowledgement from peers, subordinates and superiors that I know what I am doing because in these situations I an put in charge. PEOPLE WHO NEED THIS DONE, PICK ME TO RUN AND BRING THESE OTHERS HOME. I am not better than anyone else. But I have spent nearly 35 years working my ass off to be good at this. The people who need to explain what happened to families pick me to run these events. The people that are answerable as to what happened and what did we do and who must make the decisions pick me to run these events. When they want a search and rescue done in my county and they look to someone to run these event they pick me. When they want wilderness medicine taught in my department or they need and EMT they also use me. Does that mean anything to you? Does that mean I feel superior to everyone else or am I just the most qualified person for the job? Or does it have nothing to do with us and is it that you just feel inferior to us in training, experience, and knowledge?
Bill

They obviously didn't teach you respect for others opinions because you have shown none of this trait

Wowzer the real one wrote:

<quoted text>You are correct. That is what we heard.

My very distinct impressions of this crash was as follows. I don't remember anyone saying that the box was leaking, or had leaked which makes me believe that the box was opened in the normal manner and was being used. If the box wasn't leaking then the collision and an open container would have been responsible for the splashed liquid. This was not, in my opinion a very violent crash though anyone that has witnesses a airbag going off knows that is a violent event. I don't believe that there was enough force from the accident to break open the box wine so we are still left with the open container (the bottle found outside the car) as what was responsible for the splashed liquid.

If I am relaying any facts incorrectly, again, please correct me but these are the conclusions that I have drawn from what I think is the known evidence.

Bill

Wowzer the real one wrote:

<quoted text>
Did he say "maybe" the bottle had red liquid in it? I thought he said it "had" red liquid in it that smelled of alcohol.
Some people that drink and drive either keep their drink of choice between their legs or in the cup holder in the console. If this was the case (and I'm not saying it was) it would be very easy for the bottle/cup to get jarred onto the floor and kicked outside accidently if you hit something and were trying to get out of the vehicle.
I doubt that sticking around to hide anything or clean up a mess was high on her priority list after the SBD stopped to see if she needed help/ JMHO

At 4:43 (of 7:16) on YouTube “Disappeared – Maura Murray case (Part 3/5)" as provided by subscriber “ThatFinalWeek” Scarinza says:

“He noticed that there was a box of wine – like a 5-liter box of wine – behind the driver’s side seat -- he could see that through the window. He noticed in the snow what appeared to be something pink that had been poured into the snow. Subsequently, when they removed the vehicle, he found a Coke bottle and it smelled like there had been an alcoholic beverage in that bottle.”

No red liquid in the bottle. The bottle was under the car.

Without MM's fingerprints on the Coke bottle, MM's DNA on the Coke bottle and knowing if the liquid in the snow was from that box of wine, proving that MM had even been drinking IN the car would not hold up in a court of law. And to suggest that MM was incoherently plastered is not possible. Someone posted that the wine had come from a previous party. Unless someone can prove that the wine was purchased on Feb 9 and consumed exclusively by MM within a certain time period, a court of law would not conclude that MM was over any legal drinking limit or intoxicated.

Are MM's prints on the box of wine or was the wine sloshed around by a gloved perp. who wanted to stage the scene?

Everyone can jump to foregone conclusions based on their experiences as LE or para-LE, but professionals know that solving a crime takes true objectivity.

jwb wrote:

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They obviously didn't teach you respect for others opinions because you have shown none of this trait

Or does it have nothing to do with us and is it that you just feel inferior to us in training, experience, and knowledge?

We can discuss opinion. When you have one we will talk. You want to argue facts and science. That can't be argued. There is right and wrong. Much of what you have said in that context is wrong.

Bill

its all about you bill isn't it. You used the word "I" 11 times and the word "me"
5 times the word "my" 8 times in your last speech. Bill, no one is saying that you don't have the knowledge of your field but what you do lack are the means to respect and communicate with others without an arrogant tone. Frmle and you express the same tone of arrogance that is actually pretty sad.

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
Or does it have nothing to do with us and is it that you just feel inferior to us in training, experience, and knowledge?
We can discuss opinion. When you have one we will talk. You want to argue facts and science. That can't be argued. There is right and wrong. Much of what you have said in that context is wrong.
Bill

explain what was wrong Bill

jwb wrote:

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explain what was wrong Bill

what facts and science am I arguing? please explain

all I had said was that one would think that after 8 years that something would have been found. How is this arguing the facts? Do the facts say she walked into the woods to commit suicide? I simply stated my opinion and you and FRMLE get all worked up about it. This is a public forums where opinions are given. still curious as to where I argued against facts.

jwb wrote:

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They obviously didn't teach you respect for others opinions because you have shown none of this trait

boo-hoo my feelings are hurt, waaaaaa..

Grow up and stop acting like a whiny child.

Frostman wrote:

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At 4:43 (of 7:16) on YouTube “Disappeared – Maura Murray case (Part 3/5)" as provided by subscriber “ThatFinalWeek” Scarinza says:
“He noticed that there was a box of wine – like a 5-liter box of wine – behind the driver’s side seat -- he could see that through the window. He noticed in the snow what appeared to be something pink that had been poured into the snow. Subsequently, when they removed the vehicle, he found a Coke bottle and it smelled like there had been an alcoholic beverage in that bottle.”
No red liquid in the bottle. The bottle was under the car.
Without MM's fingerprints on the Coke bottle, MM's DNA on the Coke bottle and knowing if the liquid in the snow was from that box of wine, proving that MM had even been drinking IN the car would not hold up in a court of law. And to suggest that MM was incoherently plastered is not possible. Someone posted that the wine had come from a previous party. Unless someone can prove that the wine was purchased on Feb 9 and consumed exclusively by MM within a certain time period, a court of law would not conclude that MM was over any legal drinking limit or intoxicated.
Are MM's prints on the box of wine or was the wine sloshed around by a gloved perp. who wanted to stage the scene?
Everyone can jump to foregone conclusions based on their experiences as LE or para-LE, but professionals know that solving a crime takes true objectivity.

Frostman go to this link and scroll down to "Gist of accident". Read the last three paragraphs.
http://www.mauramurraymissing.com/Documents.h...

FrmLE wrote:

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Well Sir, lol, let me put it this way.... WRONG!
lol, again I have no idea where you get your info but after extensive review the windshield was in fact cracked by the airbag deployment and not by the head striking it.
Let me ask you this, just a question for all of you who have never been in an accident with airbag deployment.....
If the airbag did deploy in the accident, which is certainly did, how in the world can any person fit their head over top of the airbag and strike the windshield? The airbag deploys, inflates in a fraction of a second, and is literally a huge mesh barrier between the driver and the steering wheel. That is it's job, to prevent contact with the steering wheel.
So how can the airbag inflate and Mauras head go by the airbag, by the steering wheel and dashboard, and strike the windshield?
Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Drivers who had airbags but were not wearing seatbelts were 1.7 times more likely to sustain a cervical spine fracture and 2.4 times more likely to have a spinal cord injury than those drivers who used airbags and seatbelts. Front-seat passengers had even more significant results: The passengers with airbags alone and no seatbelt restraint were 6.7 times more likely to sustain a fracture with spinal cord injury than those passengers who were protected with an airbag and seatbelt.

http://www.chronicle.pitt.edu/media/pcc040719...

WTH-the-original wrote:

And I am almost certain that we heard that the box of wine had been open. Other long timers here should be able to verify if I am remembering this correctly. Speak up if I am not remembering correctly.
Bill

It's been posted (albeit purely unsubstantiated) that the wine came from a previous outing that MM attended. Without a time dated receipt for that barcoded box of wine and proof that MM had consumed that wine within a certain time frame, it doesn't matter what anyone heard.

mcsmom wrote:

<quoted text>
Drivers who had airbags but were not wearing seatbelts were 1.7 times more likely to sustain a cervical spine fracture and 2.4 times more likely to have a spinal cord injury than those drivers who used airbags and seatbelts. Front-seat passengers had even more significant results: The passengers with airbags alone and no seatbelt restraint were 6.7 times more likely to sustain a fracture with spinal cord injury than those passengers who were protected with an airbag and seatbelt.
http://www.chronicle.pitt.edu/media/pcc040719...

And your point is? Spinal cord fracture? What huh?

What does that have to do with the head impacting the windshield?

Where did you come up with such random information? Oh wait, I know, this must be the "just post random facts that I googled from the interweb" part of the thread, I get it!! Can I play??

People who have bladder control problems have trouble stopping the flow of urine from the bladder. They are said to have urinary incontinence. Incontinence is uncontrollable leaking of urine from the bladder. Although urinary incontinence is a common problem, it is never normal.

Incontinence is both a health problem and a social problem.
•Most people with incontinence suffer social embarrassment. Many become depressed and limit their activities away from home, often becoming socially isolated and lonely.

•Physical conditions linked to incontinence include infection, skin irritations and infections, falls, fractures, and sleep disturbances.

•Many people with incontinence are too embarrassed to talk to their health-care provider about it. They "cope" or "just learn to live with it." This is changing gradually as people realize that help is available.

•Approximately 15%-30% of elderly people who live at home are affected by urinary incontinence. Another 40% of elderly people who live in nursing homes are affected. Incontinence is a major reason for people going into nursing homes. However, it is not an inevitable consequence of aging.

:)

Frostman wrote:

Without MM's fingerprints on the Coke bottle, MM's DNA on the Coke bottle and knowing if the liquid in the snow was from that box of wine, proving that MM had even been drinking IN the car would not hold up in a court of law. And to suggest that MM was incoherently plastered is not possible..........Are MM's prints on the box of wine or was the wine sloshed around by a gloved perp. who wanted to stage the scene?
Everyone can jump to foregone conclusions based on their experiences as LE or para-LE, but professionals know that solving a crime takes true objectivity.

Frostman wrote:

<quoted text>
It's been posted (albeit purely unsubstantiated) that the wine came from a previous outing that MM attended. Without a time dated receipt for that barcoded box of wine and proof that MM had consumed that wine within a certain time frame, it doesn't matter what anyone heard.

I love this, date barcoded box O' wine, DNA test on spilt wine, fingerprints on a coke bottle, digital laser retina scan on the ATM video, lololol.........

Yeah man, whatever you say. You're a riot, you have alot to contribute. THANKS!!

:)