Maura Murray

I laugh every time I go by a Chuck-E-Cheeze.

John

Hey WTF/Bill, here is an airbag question for you. After the airbags go off, is it possible for the car to run again right away? In other words, can we dispel the notion of a first accident (in this short length of time) by saying that it would be technically impossible for the car to start back up that fast if the airbags went off the first time?

Did Allen Prue own a snowplowing / towing business by himself or with a partner in 2004 ? Did he or a partner own a red truck at that time ? One would think that he would own a scanner to hear the calls requesting assistance in the area.Articles make reference to him owning two trucks .Didn't he and his wife drive around awhile that night before he decided that he wanted to "get a girl?" Did he drive around often looking for an opportunity in 2004? Barnet /Waterford is not that far from N. Haverhill, is it ?
Shouldn't rule out anything out without checking it out.

The saturn DID NOT HIT THE TREE @ the WB corner.


John

Det Columbo wrote:

<quoted text>
I know of a female that looks Exactly like Maura. She is from the Haverhill area and lived very close by the accident scene. Her husband owns a local concrete/construction compnay.
You would think they were twins if they were side by side.
There is also 2 other females close to this case who resemble Maura very closely. Atwood saw the driver of the saturn at night in the dark for a few SHORT minutes.
John

Irish happens.

amy researches wrote:

Hey WTF/Bill, here is an airbag question for you. After the airbags go off, is it possible for the car to run again right away? In other words, can we dispel the notion of a first accident (in this short length of time) by saying that it would be technically impossible for the car to start back up that fast if the airbags went off the first time?

As a general statement about that year and type of car. There is nothing preventing the car from running after an airbag deployment. That event is (usually) registered in the data unit of the ECU of the car also. But cars of that age didn't prevent the car from still running on any of the cars that I have seen. Now there are other reasons the car might not run having to do with the collision. Such as some cars, I don't know about the Saturn, has a fuel flow lockout that prevents fuel from going to the engine in the event of a collision. This is something on some cars that helps prevent fires from getting gas and keeps fires from getting out of control. I don't know if Maura's car had one but I doubt it. The disadvantage is that many people don't know if their car has one and don't know that they need to reset that after a collision or the car won't run.

The other problem is the airbags are a pain in the ass to try to drive with if they are deployed. You have this big deflated airbag laying in front of you while you are trying to steer. Often emergency workers or the tow company will cut it out, to work on the patient or recover the car, because it is such a pain in the ass to deal with trying to turn the wheel. For those paying attention, that is possibly another part of the puzzle solved. The "missing airbag".

As with most things it is not a simple yes or no. But from what I have seen it is very likely that Maura's car would still run after the airbag went off.

Bill

findtheanswers wrote:

Did Allen Prue own a snowplowing / towing business by himself or with a partner in 2004 ? Did he or a partner own a red truck at that time ? One would think that he would own a scanner to hear the calls requesting assistance in the area.Articles make reference to him owning two trucks .Didn't he and his wife drive around awhile that night before he decided that he wanted to "get a girl?" Did he drive around often looking for an opportunity in 2004? Barnet /Waterford is not that far from N. Haverhill, is it ?
Shouldn't rule out anything out without checking it out.

Why stop to see if he owned a red truck. I would check into him regardless of what kind of car he owned.

Det Columbo wrote:

The saturn DID NOT HIT THE TREE @ the WB corner.
John

And again, all evidence including the on scene officers accident report indicates that it did.

Bill

findtheanswers wrote:

Did Allen Prue own a snowplowing / towing business by himself or with a partner in 2004 ? Did he or a partner own a red truck at that time ? One would think that he would own a scanner to hear the calls requesting assistance in the area.Articles make reference to him owning two trucks .Didn't he and his wife drive around awhile that night before he decided that he wanted to "get a girl?" Did he drive around often looking for an opportunity in 2004? Barnet /Waterford is not that far from N. Haverhill, is it ?
Shouldn't rule out anything out without checking it out.

And so it begins again. Breathes new life into the stale air.

Something else worth pointing out is that all cars operate with firmware which uses sensors that tell the computer something has happened. I.e. a door is opened or a switch has been turned on. Your overhead light use to be controlled by the switch inside the door. That switch now tells the computer that the door is opened or closed and the computer actually tells the light to come on or go off. Anyone have a car with lights that go out slowly. Can't do that with just a switch. The computer is doing that.

What bearing does this have on anything? The point is that every year and every model of car is different. They can program any of the sensors and computers to do anything they want. If they don't like the way something works one year, the same exact model car may behave slightly or radically different the following year. If the car runs after airbag deployment in the '94 car year, it is a relatively simple firmware change to NOT have the '95 calendar year car run after the airbag goes off. Nothing else visibly would change to the user.

That being said, I don't remember any cars that the airbag going off caused it to not run. Other caveats still apply.

Bill

The red truck tends to be given more weight because it was noticed, because it drew attention to itself when the occupant/s slowed down to apparently try to take a closer look at RO as if they were looking for someone in particular on foot. And then went on to wait in the parking lot of the store, apparently to get an even better look (with the parking lot light) at RO.

This is not an experience that happens to a person every day. It stood out to RO.

The above, combined with the timing and the fact the red truck departed in the direction of what was already or would shortly be Maura's accident and subsequent disappearance, doesn't prove that the red truck had any connection to her but hovers pretty close to "circumstantial evidence" that the red truck DID have something to do with her accident and/or disappearance. Thus one has to give a bit more weight to the red truck theory than to consideration of any other vehicles that may have gone by during the same time frame.

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
And again, all evidence including the on scene officers accident report indicates that it did.
Bill

I do not care what the accident report state. It is wrong.

The car did not hit a tree or trees. That just did not happen.

Let's go get some cars and re-enact this whole accident and there will not be any evidence that points to the saturn hitting the tree or trees.

Whatever caused the damage to the saturn did not occur at the WB corner.

John

OK, time to get outta the big city of Manchester, back to the land north of Franconia Notch.

Goshen is in Sullivan County.

John

Bill, would there have been residue inside the car of the corn starch after deployment, or is that powder so evanescent that it pretty much drifts away?

Also, found this info: "Trauma as a result of airbag deployment is not uncommon. A cursory glance at the literature shows reports of skeletal, otological, ophthalmic, vascular, cardiac, respiratory and neurological trauma, burns and even death after airbag deployment." So would it have been almost a certainty that MM would have been injured in some way by airbag deployment, or just as likely that she wouldn't be injured in any way other than "shook up"?

WTH-the-original wrote:

Something else worth pointing out is that all cars operate with firmware which uses sensors that tell the computer something has happened. I.e. a door is opened or a switch has been turned on. Your overhead light use to be controlled by the switch inside the door. That switch now tells the computer that the door is opened or closed and the computer actually tells the light to come on or go off. Anyone have a car with lights that go out slowly. Can't do that with just a switch. The computer is doing that.
What bearing does this have on anything? The point is that every year and every model of car is different. They can program any of the sensors and computers to do anything they want. If they don't like the way something works one year, the same exact model car may behave slightly or radically different the following year. If the car runs after airbag deployment in the '94 car year, it is a relatively simple firmware change to NOT have the '95 calendar year car run after the airbag goes off. Nothing else visibly would change to the user.
That being said, I don't remember any cars that the airbag going off caused it to not run. Other caveats still apply.
Bill

Thank you Bill. That is very helpful.

Advocate wrote:

The red truck tends to be given more weight because it was noticed, because it drew attention to itself when the occupant/s slowed down to apparently try to take a closer look at RO as if they were looking for someone in particular on foot. And then went on to wait in the parking lot of the store, apparently to get an even better look (with the parking lot light) at RO.
This is not an experience that happens to a person every day. It stood out to RO.
The above, combined with the timing and the fact the red truck departed in the direction of what was already or would shortly be Maura's accident and subsequent disappearance, doesn't prove that the red truck had any connection to her but hovers pretty close to "circumstantial evidence" that the red truck DID have something to do with her accident and/or disappearance. Thus one has to give a bit more weight to the red truck theory than to consideration of any other vehicles that may have gone by during the same time frame.

What about the people who witnessed the accident. They never saw a red truck stop near the car they never saw anyone get inducted or enter a car. We are giving RO power of her testimony to reshape the whole case when it might not be anything at all.
I fear the RO red truck sighting may be the equivalent to the Patterson gimlin film that gave birth to the Bigfoot phenomenon.

I'm not belittling anyone who wants to believe it I just ask that you look into how much weight can be assigned to it, because we know nothing else. All we can do now is create stories to place the red truck into her disappearance theories.

Det Columbo wrote:

<quoted text>
I do not care what the accident report state. It is wrong.
The car did not hit a tree or trees. That just did not happen.
Let's go get some cars and re-enact this whole accident and there will not be any evidence that points to the saturn hitting the tree or trees.
Whatever caused the damage to the saturn did not occur at the WB corner.
John

Well at this point John. We have evidence in the form of a police report that has tracks heading into and reflected from a set of trees and evidence on the vehicle of a collision with a vertical device, like a tree causing the damage consistent with that.

You only say this didn't happen. Unless you can prove to me otherwise, I don't know why you waste our time with your speculation that contradicts the official police report as well as logic and common sense.

And I CAN cause hood damage exactly like that with models of the hood with a vertical linear object like a tree. The lower damage would also be consistent with damage caused by a tree.

Bill

Snowy wrote:

<quoted text>
And so it begins again. Breathes new life into the stale air.

Of Course !! Only Snowy has the answers , isn't that right, Snowy ? Why then haven't you solved these cases yet?

Advocate wrote:

Bill, would there have been residue inside the car of the corn starch after deployment, or is that powder so evanescent that it pretty much drifts away?
Also, found this info: "Trauma as a result of airbag deployment is not uncommon. A cursory glance at the literature shows reports of skeletal, otological, ophthalmic, vascular, cardiac, respiratory and neurological trauma, burns and even death after airbag deployment." So would it have been almost a certainty that MM would have been injured in some way by airbag deployment, or just as likely that she wouldn't be injured in any way other than "shook up"?

That corn starch question is pretty good. I don't ever remember seeing residue, but I can't swear that it isn't there.

As for the reports. Don't forget. The airbag only pushes the person as hard as they are pushing against the airbag. In high speed, high energy collisions the body is pushing very hard against the airbag so that results in much more damage to the body.

It is all about the energy.

energy =.5 * mass * velocity * velocity

If you double the mass (for these purposes consider mass to be weight) you double the energy involved, but if you double speed you quadruple energy. So going from 30 mph to 60 mph requires the airbag to dissipate four time more energy to help protect you. It can't always produce that type of protection, so more, sometimes much more injuries occur. But in Maura's case it was a low energy collision simply based upon the damage to the car. Which is what police can use (based upon what scientists/engineer studies show) to determine speed of a vehicle at the time of the collision and EMT's (and ER docs and nurses) use to determine the amount of energy the body had transmitted to it.

Bill

Snowy wrote:

<quoted text>
And so it begins again. Breathes new life into the stale air.

Of course Snowboard has another opinion .Check yourself before you wreck yourself !