Maura Murray

Cheech wrote:

<quoted text>pepper throws a dog off.

No it doesn´t. I have tried that.

hannah_b wrote:

<quoted text>
The presence of another persons scent will not throw a dog off trail. An open flat area will is not the typical place for those changes in microclimate that will make a difference to a tracking dog. More typically those are places with hight variations (even very small ones), surfaces that could turn the wind, and that will have a different temperature or moist condition than the surroundings etc., but there is really no way to be sure. The simplest explanation for the dog losing her scent is the scent really ended there. The simplest explanation for the scent ending in the middle of a road is she got into a vehicle right there.

Well now. People are sure that scent trail was accurate. If I can erase the reported red truck laying in wait on BHR, and never mind that she may have walked to and fro to get signal, also that she did not stay by her car or get in her trunk, well then maybe I can move on from all that and be more helpful

Pepper will not throw a dogs nose off. As far as I'm aware nothing actually does, not coffee grounds, not cologne, nothing like that. Dogs can differentiate smells too well.

If something as simple as pepper worked there would b no use of dogs on the borders searching for drugs and other contraband.
All of those tricks have been proven false

Frostman wrote:

So, Jenkins, I guess what you're saying is that it would be impossible to get very far into the woods near the crash site without snowshoes or cross county skis? It's been reported that Maura's running shoes were left in the Saturn, and that she was wearing a pair of "bowling style" shoes which presumably were un-treaded so I doubt she would be able to make it very far down the road (112) on foot or be able to adequately run on a side road.

Yes that's exactly what I'm saying, & honestly it would prob have to b snowshoes. Even xc skis she wouldn't have been able to make it anywhere far in those conditions.

From what I can tell it appears she was wearing flats.
I always thought she was wearing sneakers that looked like hiking boots but It doesn't look like she was even wearing that.

Anyone know if any shoes were found in her car? Running shoes flats anything?

I always kinda thought that she prob had a pair of running shoes with her and could changed into those real quick if she wanted to run it. I suppose Sn coulda slipped her flats into her bag bc those aren't very big.
But I don't think she had been running for the past couple months bc if her hamstring so there's a good possibility she didn't even have those.

Even if she had running shoes, or even real hiking boots she was wearing skinny jeans and as soon as she started trouncing through the snow her shoes and the bottom of her pants woulda been full of snow.

Even w snow boots on it can n very difficult to walk through snow without the boots filling with snow, unless u have like snowpants on.
I find the only boots I can walk throug the snow wearing jeans without getting full of snow r the talk sorrell boots, the ones that go almost up
To your knees. & we know she disnt have any of those.

Anyone who says it's not difficult to walk thru 2' of snow either just doesn't know, is lying for some reason, or maybe smoking crack lol. Bc it is extremely difficult, even for someone in good shape. Might not b the hardest thing in the world but that don't make it easy.

hannah_b wrote:

<quoted text>
No it doesn´t. I have tried that.

You can point to lots of idiot in jail who thought that would work. Mostly drug dealers. No, it doesn't. Black pepper, cyan powder, etc. I have heard about them all. Doesn't work.

Bill

Jenkins wrote:

cont'd from above:
Generally in a wilderness seaxh and rescue there r huge areas to be searched.
But this case is different bc while she theoretically could've made it into the woods there is no way she made it deep into the woods. The terrain and te conditions just don't allow for that. There's very few points she even could've gotten into the woods.
There would b large areas the searchers could eliminate strictly bc she couldn't have gotten there, such as the 5 miles of the side the river is on.
There's no way she crossed that river so there's no way she's in those woods.
There's no way she could've made it mich farther than a mile in, 2 absolute max.
When the search area is much smaller than a regular search, the regular rules don't apply

I will just say this right out. The reason people aren't found in searches is because of thinking like this. When searching is done, one of the most important properties that needs to be defined is the area called R.O.W.- the Rest Of the World. The area that you are pretty convinced that the subject is not in. It is not included in the search area because of this. It is probably one of the biggest mistakes that novice search commanders make in their assumptions. It is also very common for family and friends to be one of the worst people to get information on what a subject could or couldn't do, so your opinion on what she was capable of is really of even less use.

What can be used, by experienced searchers, is information on other types of searches based upon the category, type of search, terrain, season etc of a search similar to Maura's.

Just for fun. When you write, a mile in or two max. Do you mean into the woods? If we assume your 2 miles max into the woods. Just on the south side since you dismiss that she could have crossed the river, something I don't agree with but for the sake of a "what if", lets go with your assumptions. If we just assume 5 miles, in either direction, you have a 20 square mile search area. Sound easily manageable to you? How many searchers do you think it would take? I personally believe that Maura could have gotten much farther down the road than 5 miles, say 10 miles? That becomes a 100 square mile search area. Piece of cake, right? Couldn't possibly have not found a scattered body in 100 square miles of terrain like that. No way that a quick search by helicopter wouldn't have not found evidence of passage.

Bill

Just curious -- would diesel fumes throw a dog off? Thinking about the SBD and wife and their 2 buses that would have been in and out of their yard/driveway over and around where the dog lost the scent.

Advocate wrote:

Just curious -- would diesel fumes throw a dog off? Thinking about the SBD and wife and their 2 buses that would have been in and out of their yard/driveway over and around where the dog lost the scent.

You know, I still haven't ever gotten a straight answer on this, ever. On one hand they insist that it isn't a problem, yet every one that I have ever met still says that they don't want diesel engines in the search area, if it can be avoided. So, if you ever get a straight answer to that question, that they don't immediately contradict, let me know.

Bill

Frostman wrote:

So, Jenkins, I guess what you're saying is that it would be impossible to get very far into the woods near the crash site without snowshoes or cross county skis? It's been reported that Maura's running shoes were left in the Saturn, and that she was wearing a pair of "bowling style" shoes which presumably were un-treaded so I doubt she would be able to make it very far down the road (112) on foot or be able to adequately run on a side road.

This is interesting information, I wasn't aware of that she only had bowling like shoes. I think that helps narrow things down to where it is very very unlikely she went into the woods and wasn't planning on walking far.

anonymousone wrote:

<quoted text>
This is interesting information, I wasn't aware of that she only had bowling like shoes. I think that helps narrow things down to where it is very very unlikely she went into the woods and wasn't planning on walking far.

I def wouldn't say it's confirmed she was wearing flats, it appears that she was but I also recall people on the orig mm forum saying that she was wearing those sneakers that look like hiking boots, but they're low and def not boots at all.
Either way we know she wasn't prepared for being in the woods during the winter in Nh. Theresa absolutely no way she was planning on going deep into the woods to drink herself to death, that's just ridiculous. What's she gonna do just go trouncing through 2' of snow in her sneakers and jeans with no gloves & climb to the top of a mountain? There's no trails open to the tops of mountains in Nh in winter, well nothing even approaching easy to climb. It's serious life or death, climb at yur own risk type shit. U would need serious gear to make it up a mountain in feb. What would be the fun of drinking yourself to death on top of a mountain, if u can't make it to the top Of the mountain? Remember this is a girl who brought beers to celebrate at the top of mt Mansfield(i think it was mansfield) Great mountain to hike but certainly not difficult by any means..If she thought this was an accomplishment worthy of celebration she clearly wasn't an expert mountaineer by any means. Not to put her down at all I hike the same mountains she did and consider it an achievement every time, but I'm also not an expert who can climb mountains in the dead of winter or have any interest in doing anything that difficult.

The fact is that she couldn't have made it far into those woods. Those shoes and jeans & no gloves, no way. There's so many spots along 112 u can't even enter the woods, like across the river. Can't cross it. No way in hell. In summer it's a big stream, in winter that thing is a raging river that's half really weak, clear kind of ice, and the other half water. Anyone trying to cross this in winter is going to die. To get down to the river there's about a 15-20' incline that's so steep it's ridiculous. No way ur just walking down it.

This is just a theory but what if Maura was at her car contemplating on what exactly to do with her potential DWI after Butch Atwood talked to her. Butch Atwood drives to his house and parks his bus and goes inside to get the phone to call the police and also taking a moment to say hi to his common law wife and mother. I'm guessing this is about 3-5 minutes he is inside. He would be in no rush because of course he was not expecting someone to go missing and she was not hurt. At the same time the red truck comes along and sees Maura and asks her if she needed a ride. She says no and the driver of the red truck is persistant and made her feel uncomfortable. Maura then starts to run east away from him to Butch Atwoods house because she just saw him pull into the driveway and knows he is there and got about 100 feet east when the driver of the red truck pulls a gun or weapon and tells her to get in and says if you scream I will hurt you. The red truck then turns onto Bradley Hill Road and Maura jumps out of the truck further down and runs which is why it was seen parked for no reason and he catches her then takes her to an unknown location. This is just a theory I have no idea truthfully but that would fit.

anonymousone wrote:

<quoted text> This is interesting information, I wasn't aware of that she only had bowling like shoes. I think that helps narrow things down to where it is very very unlikely she went into the woods and wasn't planning on walking far.

IIRC, the term "bowling like" came from a description on Helena's (2nd) forum.

This is one of the missing posters that shows the style of shoes that Maura was believed to be wearing that night:

http://bp0.blogger.com/_PQbVMfpHJBg/Rww-jmYgm...

They look like everyday Adidas-style walking shoes to me and don't appear as if they'd have much treading on the sole.

Frostman wrote:

<quoted text> IIRC, the term "bowling like" came from a description on Helena's (2nd) forum.

It's not possible to provide a direct link to these older forums (your post is immediately negated by Topix) but if you search:

'Maura Murray + forum + phbb' you can get to Helena's 2nd forum where you'll find RobinsonOrdway's 40+ posts (including the Red Truck accounts) and Sharon R's notes regarding the early days of the search as well as other interesting information, pictures and newspaper articles.(Look for where is says :: View Forum)

AND

'Find Maura Murray 21+ forumer' will lead you to Advocate's 2nd forum.(Again, look for the :: View Forum)

Despite the fact that it states these forums are LOCKED, you can still read the contributions made by the posters.

Frostman wrote:

<quoted text>
IIRC, the term "bowling like" came from a description on Helena's (2nd) forum.
This is one of the missing posters that shows the style of shoes that Maura was believed to be wearing that night:
http://bp0.blogger.com/_PQbVMfpHJBg/Rww-jmYgm...
They look like everyday Adidas-style walking shoes to me and don't appear as if they'd have much treading on the sole.

I have seen people post-holing in snow a foot deep in shoes just like that on the approach to Mt. Adams and other locations. They had been doing it for hours and were still headed up to the peak. The thought that people don't walk around in all types of ridiculous footwear in the snow is absurd. The thought that people won't continue on in any type of footwear even knowing it's not in their best interest is also absurd. Oh, and these were not hard core, seasoned hikers either. Clearly from the equipment, clothing and footwear they chose. And people trying to convince them they should turn back because they were ill prepared didn't dissuade them from continuing either. But, I suppose that doesn't fit into what you want to believe so nothing will convince you that it happens all the time.

Bill

Advocate wrote:

Just curious -- would diesel fumes throw a dog off? Thinking about the SBD and wife and their 2 buses that would have been in and out of their yard/driveway over and around where the dog lost the scent.

No, diesel fumes does not throw a dog off. Some of the SAR training is done among ruins where they also have placed wrecked cars and oil barrels with diesel set on fire. No problem for the dogs.

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
I have seen people post-holing in snow a foot deep in shoes just like that on the approach to Mt. Adams and other locations. They had been doing it for hours and were still headed up to the peak. The thought that people don't walk around in all types of ridiculous footwear in the snow is absurd. The thought that people won't continue on in any type of footwear even knowing it's not in their best interest is also absurd. Oh, and these were not hard core, seasoned hikers either. Clearly from the equipment, clothing and footwear they chose. And people trying to convince them they should turn back because they were ill prepared didn't dissuade them from continuing either. But, I suppose that doesn't fit into what you want to believe so nothing will convince you that it happens all the time.
Bill

& exactly what time of year was this?
Sounds to me like late march or early april judging by the lack of snow one the ground and the fact that people r hiking the mountain.
Nobody hikes mountains in February in Nh, well nobody except the most hardy winter mountaineers.
Also your talking about daytime, nice weather with clearly at least a few groups of people.

Completely different than a 21yr old girl alone in the Dark of night in feb in Nh, the comparison your making here is absurd.
Go to mt Washington at the beginning of April and u see the same thing. Only thing is 99% of the trail is trampled down into a relatively hard surface and it really doesn't matter what shoes u r wearing.
Nothing at all like trailblazing your own new trail, through2' of snow in the middle of the woods all by yourself in the beginning of febraury.

If u think those same guys u saw climbing mt Adams in spring when there's clearly groups of people climbing the mt wouldn't turn back if they were all by themselves and it was 8-9 at night im february, your sorely mistaken.

Nobody's saying that u can't walk through snow with the wrong shoes, u clearly can.
But what's the likelihood a 21 yr old girl, wearing tiny sneakers, through 2' of snow, at 9pm in February is gonna keep going far into the woods?
None unless she was suicidal.

Bill you must think she was suicidal right?
What your describing is clearly a suicide mission to anyone kno knows anything about hiking in the north country. & I suspect Maura knew at least that much, she was an avid reader of not without peril, which in reality is more about NOT dying than dying.

Your comparing what an older man who hikes mountains with a group in the beginning of spring to a 21 yr old girl by herself in the middle of the night in the middle of winter.
Completely different animal.

Any comparison between these men he saw hiking in a group when it's nice weather to Maura should be taken with a giant grain of salt..its just not a legitimate comparison.
How do I know the weather was nice? Bc there were groups of people on the mountain.
Go to mt Adams in the beginning of February when it's 20 degrees outside and then tell me how many people r hiking the mountain without boots.

Bill your trying to squeeze in your own experience to fit the known facts, & bending the facts in the process

Hi all. diesel fumes from 2 school buses over who knows how many years being stoppped and backed into the driveway WOULD hinder a search dog.I have seen many articles about this very problem where the dog handler asks that all vehicles be turned off when the search dogs arrive to start the search.I am asssuming the buses at the Atwood residence were diesel.take care philip

Jenkins wrote:

<quoted text>Nobody's saying that u can't walk through snow with the wrong shoes, u clearly can.

Glad we finally agree that shoe-wear really doesn't indicate what a person will or will not do. So know we can concentrate on her motivation correct? Like trying to get away from the car, while likely intoxicated.

Jenkins wrote:

<quoted text>Bill you must think she was suicidal right?

I don't know if she was suicidal. I clearly think she had some serious issues on her plate and now, to add insult to injury, she crashed her escape pod, her car. The thing that was going to wing her away to fun and sun in the mountains, her getaway. And then the drinking so this little adventure got really screwed up, didn't it? Things weren't going really well at this point. So, while running away for at least a while, to "gather her thoughts", as some have suggested, this little challenge occurred. The straw that broke the camels back? I don't know. I am certain she ran from the scene because of the drinking. How desperate was she at that point is up for speculation. What she did, or where she headed, I don't know. I do know that assuming that she isn't in the woods because of her shoe-wear or the phase of the moon, or the wind velocity and direction from a 24 hour snapshot from a location 5 miles away is all folly. But, it is entertaining as hell and I give everyone high marks for playing along.

Bill

Jenkins wrote:

Your comparing what an older man who hikes mountains with a group in the beginning of spring to a 21 yr old girl by herself in the middle of the night in the middle of winter.
Completely different animal.

No such comparison was made. These were also kids about Maura's age. And judging by the rate of their progress and time of day, they weren't getting out of the woods before dark if they continued on. Which from what I saw, they did, despite others telling them it wasn't a good idea. Like I said, I haven't seen this just once.

Bill