Maura Murray

Who is or was the NHLI working for when they conducted their Investigation? Does anyone know?

http://colddarkwater.com/index_files/Page602....

Don E. Nason Jr., Immediate Past President of the NHLI

http://doj.nh.gov/criminal/cold-case/

Unsolved homicide- NHCCU maura Murray

SnowyB wrote:

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some of the information that Jenkins references may be found on an original MMM forum. "Weeper's" informal commentary seems to carry a great deal of weight, and remains a jumping off platform for all speculation and development of theories.
i'm certain someone will refute that assertion if they can or are willing to link to another source.

Thanks for this information. I appreciate it.

jwb wrote:

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Amy, do you really think that a PI will give you proof while the investigation is on going? Same goes for LE there is no additional proof or facts to pass on to the public. i doesn't mean either side is not credible right?

Right, I don't think one opinion is more credible than another. I look at it objectively. Without seeing proof from either side of why they say what they say, it is impossible to know who is right or wrong.

If Weeper had posted a copy of his expert's report re the Saturn damage, for example, it would lend more credibility to his theory. I understand maybe he can't do that, just as FrmLE can't answer certain questions here without compromising the investigation.

I don't take anyone's word as gospel. Obviously no one knows for sure or Maura would be found. It is all just their professional opinions, and we can each choose which one we think is most likely true based on what makes sense to us.

jwb wrote:

There are also many links to Healy and he is or was the man in charge so I would say that if he says something about the case he is speaking for the others as a whole. Healy stated that he thought the accident was staged and that he suspected foul play.
Cold case unit feels foul play was involved. opinions FRMLE- you asked people to take yours(opinions) for what they are but you want to jab at others opinions.No body questioned your opinions or asked about your sources of information.
There is obviously different opinions from NHSP , investigators and posters. So what- pick a theory and go with it and explain why you feel that way.

I agree with this. State your opinion and explain why. There are many outcomes that could have happened here.

FrmLE wrote:

Who is or was the NHLI working for when they conducted their Investigation? Does anyone know?

The bottom line is the NHSP believe that a good chance foul play was involved.

FrmLE wrote:

Jenkins, if you are going to spend all that time typing long rambling posts, perhaps you could type in a manner people (who are not 12 yr old girls) can read?
I don't read "text" very well, it's an absurd way to try to communicate with people who are not 12 years old girls or boys.
I have no time to try to read all that nonsense, sorry. Just keep believing whatever you believe it's all good.

I would appreciate an answer to
My question early if possible.

FrmLE wrote:

Did Kelly speak for the NHLI as a whole, or was he speaking for himself? Can you post his exact position, to remove any ambiguity as to what he said?

Here is part of it that was posted on a forum:

"I would like to recap some information that has previously been posted on the MMM Forum and partly on this site as well, with reference to the first “call-out” about an accident on route 112 at or about 7:00-7:10 PM on February 9, 2004.

A witness returning home from her/his place of employment at Cottage Hospital on Goose Lane stated she/he observed a cook “Bronco style” police unit with #1 stenciled on it passed her/him heading (with blue lights flashing) toward the intersection of Goose Lane and French Pond Road in Swiftwater. Please have a map of this area to follow along as it gets confusing since these routes twist from Haverhill into the Swiftwater portion of the town of Bath and back into the northern section of Haverhill. Goose Lane and the Cottage Hospital are in Haverhill, then into Bath where it continues south-south west back toward the Woodsville portion of Haverhill. As the witness drove further up Goose Lane she/he observed the police unit continue on Goose Lane back toward Swiftwater. As this witness turned off Goose Lane in Bath and onto French Pond Road and the very short distance on French Pond Road to the intersection with route 112 (the Wild Ammonoosuc Road as it’s called) almost across from the general store, she/he observed the same unit (#1) pass her/him at that intersection heading east toward where the Saturn was ultimately located. When the witness came to the corner at the Weathered Barn she/he saw this police unit, nose to nose with the Saturn (bacon-end into the snow bank) but did not see any officers or people around the two vehicles (it is assumed Sgt. Smith was at this point either speaking with the Westermans or down speaking with Mr. Atwood. The witness then continued along route 112 East heading home and flashed her/his high-low beams to oncoming traffic (universal signal to slow down ahead) due to the location of the accident on the sharp curve.

This witness’ account of what she/he saw that evening supports the postings about an “earlier accident” where “female left in private vehicle”, which was heard by others over the scanners up in that area.

What does all this mean then? It means an officer was responding to a “vehicle slid off the road” call, but rather than take the most direct route to the Weathered Barn the officer went back toward Route 10 where it intersect with Goose Lane up in the Woodsville section of Haverhill, before turning back toward the corner at the Westerman’s Weathered Barn. Could there have been two separate juices sliding off the road into snow banks that evening within thirty minutes of one another, I doubt it but it is possible none the less."

FrmLE wrote:

Did Kelly speak for the NHLI as a whole, or was he speaking for himself? Can you post his exact position, to remove any ambiguity as to what he said?

Part 2, ran out of space:

"

My personal opinion is that the Saturn was turned into Old Peters Road, put into reverse and backed into the snow bank (again accounting for the acceleration and then a thud) and the operator pulled the shift lever into neutral rather than push it up into park. Under this scenario the Westmans would not have see the headlights during this maneuver as they would have shown up Old Peters Road. This is only an assumption based on a belief the Saturn was put at that location.

Please do read and study the accident report very closely as there are many answers to your questions in that one simple document. What’s not in the report answers a few more questions. All the cilantro check-off boxes should be scrutinized as well, they paint a picture as much as the words do.

Whiston’s questioning about the time-line as relating to the chain of events is troubling at best. He is correct that if we go along with the witness leaving work at the Cottage Hospital by way of Goose Lane-to-French Pond Road-to Route 112 East to the Weathered Barn taking place between 7:10-7:15 PM, and seeing the cook Bronco (H1) there ahead of him/her we have to conclude #1) That SC was on scene before the Westman’s call to dispatch at 7:26 PM as recorded OR #2) the witness’s time line is incorrect. If we go with #1 scenario we have to now account for the SBD (BA) statements and time line of events and the Westman’s observations from just prior to 7:26 PM through the time the bus driver was present and they stopped watching. Logic would dictate we have to accept #2 scenario that the witness from the hospital mis-stated the times. At any rate, it’s still troubling that it took the officer at least nineteen (19) minutes from dispatch to on-scene response. "

More....

"With reference to Saturn’s final resting place in the snow bank and the witnesses’ statements to Sgt. Smith within the first half hour of the incident. There has always been speculation as to the identity of the driver of the Saturn that evening for the following reasons. The first witnesses, the Westmans, initially stated they heard acceleration then a loud “thud” and when they looked out their window they saw a woman sitting in the passenger seat with the door open smoking a cigarette. Most of us agreed that it was more likely Maura attempting to use her cell phone that caused the “glowing” effect that the Westmans assumed to be a cigarette since Maura didn’t smoke. It now seems probable that the person the Westmans identified as a woman was based on their observation of a person with long hair sitting in the front passenger side of the Saturn. It wasn’t until two years later that we determined the front end damage to the Saturn didn’t occur at the curve near the Weathered Barn and that damage was the result of an “overhang” object. Please bear with me here, this “assumption” that Maura was the person the witnesses saw may have been a mistake. The Westmans stated what they saw and may have been convinced the person was in fact Maura or at least a female by all the media coverage and the family and searchers. They are good honest people who did everything they could to help find the poor steak. They said they stopped watching when Mr. Atwood showed up with the school bus shortly thereafter.

Now we come to the second witness “on scene” who was much closer to the Saturn than anyone else that night, while it was occupied. We all have heard the many variations of what he stated about what was said to him and what he claims to have seen. Over the years the media, police and everyone else continues to quote Mr. Atwood’s version of events from that evening because it all seemed to fit, on the surface. However, his actions that evening were very peculiar to his neighbors. One action in particular stands out, the way he parked the bus that evening. He backed the bus all the way up beside the house to an outbuilding and after a brief moment when he went into the house and told his live in girlfriend what happened (she was in fact the person who called the Grafton County Sherriff’s Department) he went back out and sat in the bus until Sgt. Smith walked down and spoke to him through the open door. To grasp the oddity of this action (as his neighbor did that evening) we need to understand that his girlfriend also drove a full size school bus and they always parked them in front of the house where the State installed a large floodlight (just like a street light on a public street) right on his property at the intersection with Bradley Hill Road. Had he parked his bus in it’s “usual” parking spot he would have had a clear, unobstructed view all the way up to the stranded Saturn, 560 feet (I measured it). He also claimed to have seen several vehicles pass that intersection but couldn’t identify any of them. He had never parked his bus like this, before or after, since that evening. This witness’s statements and actions leave a lot to the imagination. Mr. Atwood knows a lot more about what happened that evening but he’s not talking, especially to our investigators. He may have given LE different statements but those documents are not available to the public or the PI Team (as I said before, we don’t want them nor do we need them)."

This is the last part:

"The reason for my posting this information is in the hopes that Ben Franklin can factor some of this information into his previous analysis (which I find to be very interesting by the way Ben, thank you). Also consider this, when shown a photograph of Maura, Mr. Atwood stated “well it looks like her but her hair was down”. This statement in and of itself covers any other witness statement that they saw a woman in the vehicle that evening, the identifier being the “long hair”. This is what I meant by a “Maura look-alike”(to the Westmans, not Atwood), a man with long hair. If you are going to ask me if I believe Mr. Atwood was lying when he talked to the media and the police, my answer would be yes. It wasn’t a mistake, it was a deliberate deception. Remember also when Sgt. Smith arrived and spoke with the Westmans, he asked them if they had “seen where the female from the Saturn had gone” and they told him they hadn’t, he asked that question because it was Mr. Atwood’s girlfriend who called and told Grafton County dispatch that her “husband” asked her to call about a female having run off the road. That statement from Sgt. Smith indicated believed it was a female and the Westmans assumed it was a female smoking in the front passenger seat of the Saturn when initially they thought it was a man. This is a long post, but you all wanted a bit of information and this is just one component of an investigation, analyzing witness statements. I do not, nor have I ever, believe Sgt. Smith was in any way connected to Maura’s disappearance. His filling out and filing of the “official public accident report” may have been flawed and inaccurate but not done so with any malicious intent. "

(cont'd from above)

"The damaged driver’s side headlight remained intact and the best we could hope for was one of two “plastic-cooking wine” missing from the undercarriage/bumper. Metal detectors turned up several coins, bottle caps and a few lug-nuts, nothing from the Saturn though we didn’t walk the entire route down Route 112 from Route 25 heading toward the Weathered Barn. We did check around the damaged “guardrails” but realized the damage to the Saturn was not consistent with the height and width of the guardrails. Hope this answers some of your questions. Respectfully, Weeper"

Euro, your post (3993) is correct in part (if one wishes to begin at Amherst, MA and work ones way to Haverhill, NH it would take longer than where we are today) however, we do have to start at one end or the other. Sometimes the only way to find the beginning is to work backwards and in this case it’s the abandoned Saturn 620 feet east of the intersection of Bradley Hill Road on Route 112 in Haverhill, NH. This is where the “physical evidence” to wit; the vehicle was found. I have posted and clearly stated as “fact”(this can be backed up in any court of law, but not here) the damage to the Saturn did not happen where the vehicle was recovered. Hence, our investigation of foul play begins there,(by “there” I mean within a few miles) and I might add, has not ventured far from there, for the two and a half years that I’ve been involved with this case. This does not mean we (the Team, LE and others) have not explored all the possibilities to include run-away, suicide, accidental wandering/death, hit-and-run etc.

Posted by "weeper" on topix:

I (this is my “professional opinion”, not necessarily the Team or LE you understand) believe the location of the Saturn was staged. I believe Maura met with foul play prior to the staging, I believe the overhang damage to the front end of the Saturn was deliberate; I believe her disappearance was not voluntary and I further believe this is no longer a “search and rescue” but a recovery. If there was ever a time in my life I hope to be wrong it is at this time.

Oh well, Topix apparently has lag times on posts, sorry for the double post.

P.S. Note the food-related terms - "plastic-cooking wine" which means (?) and "cilantro" which means "little".

Jenkins, if you're going to post quoted text, please put it in quotes so we know which is quoted and which is your own statements.

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

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I don't understand what the benefit would be to creating a second crash site so close to another. I don't see any point to that. Also if they say they can prove it why wouldn't they present the proof, why would Fred show the Id discovery viewers the wrong crash site in the show disappeared? I'm sure they would tell Fred of the real crash site. All this doesn't add up for anyone.
Saying a bunch of people heard the calls on the scanner means nothing to me unless they recorded the call.

Someone would do this to muddy the waters and /or hide potential evidence, plain and simple.

If you think about it it's actualty a great idea If you wanted to commit a crime like this. You leave the car in a different spot to throw off any investigation right from the start.
People crash at the wb corner all the time in the winter, a local would know this.
People leave cars that have been crashed into snowbanks all the time in Nh, this is perfectly normal behavior innthe north country whether your drunk or sober.
So if you make it so LE thinks someone simply spun our around a corner & left her car, they wouldn't even be looking for her for days when the family reported her missing.

Whoever committed this crime was either smart or really lucky, certainly not like Allan Prue and his wife who couldn't cover their tracks to save their lives

Ruthless Rye wrote:

Jenkins, if you're going to post quoted text, please put it in quotes so we know which is quoted and which is your own statements.

Yup, won't happen again.
But I didn't say anything at all, that was all what weeper wrote.

The only thing I said was post from weeper on topix. I'm not exacty sure how that ended up in the middle of the post but whatev

Jenkins wrote:

Frank Kelly(weeper, head of the nhli) came to the conclusion that the accident was staged at the weathered barn.
He said he believes that the first accident took place about 1-3 miles to the east of the weathered barn. He specifically said that this can be proven in a court of law.
He said that it was heard on scanners by multiple people in the area(not just Anne, she's just the only one who posts online)
He believes there was someone standing in for Maura at the weathered barn curve.
Also that they have looked into all the options and their investigation has remained in the Haverhill area as that's what the evidence warrants.
Have you read this guys resume? He is one of the most experienced criminal investigators in Nh. He has put his name out there to the public so we know he's not just some random person saying this. He and the nhli conducted an extensive investigation independent of the nhsp & reached these conclusions.
FrmLE: have you ever actually conducted an investigation into this or are you just spewing things from behind your keyboard and your "LE" moniker? If your so sure she's in the woods why don't you list your evidence and reasoning for thinking so? Or are you just basing this on nothing?
And if your so sure why don't you put your reputation on the line like Kelly has & tell people who you are?
I know your not going to do that, just as I know your just spewing bullshit from behind your keyboard.
You know as well as I do there's absolutely no evidence pointing to her being in the woods, & there's a lot of evidence pointing to her being abducted.

John Healy was the head of NH league of private inve4stigators. Frank Kelly was one of the PIs investigating this case as well as other PIs including John Healy.