Maura Murray

I meant to write 'here' before, don't want spelling police coming after me. sorry.

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
If this is accurate. I don't know why he didn't make any calls, but I have to admit, it is an interesting question. I know I would be calling my kids cell to beat the band. I have in the past.
Bill

From 507 to 549 there are no outbound calls made from his cell. 549 is the last call on the page of the phone bill. Also the 544 LE call to start to search for daughter wasn't made from this phone or at a different time. LE or daughter was not called on this phone bill. Maybe there is another page where he called later but not in this phone bill.

The outbound calls made around 507 were three short calls no longer than a minute.

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

<quoted text>
For the record the class is debate specific, it was not meant to investigate or solve crimes. I know nothing more than what any of you readers know. The debate covered everything in that has been said and argued for many years on this forum. There was only one thing mentioned in the debate that the forum never looked at.
Look at the Feb 10th timeline and then look at his phone records. Renner makes a point to mention that LE had to subpeona them because of the sprint intro letter and they weren't given to LE voluntary. It was common knowledge that he was traveling. At 3:20 LE calls his home and leaves a message. Between 5:00 to 5:30 Daughter calls him and tells him that other daughter is missing. looking at phone records incoming phone calls of 7.5 minutes and 10+ minutes around 5:17 seem to that time that he was informed.
The alarming thing is that he doesn't make an outbound call. Not one after 5:03. A man who searches all of NH, goes on private property, asks the FBI, writes the governor, but doesn't make one call to daughters cell after she is missing after car crash.
I'm not sure what any of this means but I would think the second you are told of something like this, I would expect numerous calls to her cell and some voicemails.
We didn't have an answer for that. I'm hoping there is one, but we didn't have one. Maybe he stopped traveling and started making calls from payphone?

Hey lighthouse thanks for posting about how your debate went, interesting post.
Just wondering, Were you assigned your side of the argument by your teacher or did you guys choose it Yourself?

That is a very interesting point that Fred didnt even try calling Maura. That's crazy If you think about it. You would think he would've been calling over n over leaving messages telling her to come home n stuff like that.
Especially considering the fact that she was supposed to call him the night she went missing around 8 and she never did. Its pretty messed up that she never called him and he straight up never tried calling her again..then to too this all off LE has to subpoena his phone records?! He didn't just give them to LE?? You would think that if your daughter is missing you wouldn't want them wasting any time at all, certainly not have to waste the time of going through the effort of a
Subpoena when he could just give them to le himself, idk but something is def wrong w this picture.

Anybody question what he was talking about whn he said that he was gonna help her fill out accident forms? Has anyone ever heard of this? Filling out an accident form when a Cop was on scene? Every accident I've ever been in I've never had to fill anything like that out. The cop makes re accident report and you go pick it up about 1-2 wks later.
My gf crashed my car on her way out of UMass one day, one car crash, Hadley cop responded. She definitely did not have to fill out any accident forms, she had to go to the Hadley pd about a wk later and pick up the accident report to send to my insurance company. Also there was never any question about whether or not she was covered, I don't see why he said he had to check his insurance to find out if she was covered. In mass the car is insured, not the driver, my 25yr old gf knew this, you would think that a 61yr old mass resident would know this.
It's just weird, so many things this guy has said just turned out to be wrong, or outright lies.

I find it very telling the LE has never eliminated him as a suspect.

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

<quoted text> Look at the Feb 10th timeline and then look at his phone records. Renner makes a point to mention that LE had to subpeona them because of the sprint intro letter and they weren't given to LE voluntary. It was common knowledge that he was traveling. At 3:20 LE calls his home and leaves a message. Between 5:00 to 5:30 Daughter calls him and tells him that other daughter is missing. looking at phone records incoming phone calls of 7.5 minutes and 10+ minutes around 5:17 seem to that time that he was informed.
The alarming thing is that he doesn't make an outbound call. Not one after 5:03. A man who searches all of NH, goes on private property, asks the FBI, writes the governor, but doesn't make one call to daughters cell after she is missing after car crash.
I'm not sure what any of this means but I would think the second you are told of something like this, I would expect numerous calls to her cell and some voicemails.
We didn't have an answer for that. I'm hoping there is one, but we didn't have one. Maybe he stopped traveling and started making calls from payphone?

Where exactly does Mr. Renner say that the Sprint telephone records weren't given to LE voluntarily? You don't think that LE subpoenaed all phone records on February 20, 2004 (11 days post disappearance) so that they could obtain information more quickly, do you? What if Mr. Murray's billing cycle ended on February 25th? if that was the case then he probably wouldn't receive a bill in the mail until, say, March 3rd -- therefore a subpoena might have been deemed to be more expeditious. AND why was there such urgency if LE thought this was just a college co-ed from MA choosing to disappear of her own free will in the wilds of New Hampshire?

So Mr. Murray doesn't make another outgoing call from his cell? Ever? Are you certain? Or do you only have the viewable records up until 17:49 on February 10th, 2004 (which is 40 minutes after that incoming call ended)? Did you ever consider that during the conversation with his eldest daughter that Mr. Murray might have been informed that Maura's cell phone was going directly to voice mail? Did it cross your mind that Mr. Murray might have asked his eldest daughter to keep calling Maura's cell phone and that he decided (or was advised) to keep his cell phone line open so LE could contact him?

What was this class you were taking -- Irrational One-Sided Thinking 100? Just kidding, but come on...

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

<quoted text>
For the record the class is debate specific, it was not meant to investigate or solve crimes. I know nothing more than what any of you readers know. The debate covered everything in that has been said and argued for many years on this forum. There was only one thing mentioned in the debate that the forum never looked at.
Look at the Feb 10th timeline and then look at his phone records. Renner makes a point to mention that LE had to subpeona them because of the sprint intro letter and they weren't given to LE voluntary. It was common knowledge that he was traveling. At 3:20 LE calls his home and leaves a message. Between 5:00 to 5:30 Daughter calls him and tells him that other daughter is missing. looking at phone records incoming phone calls of 7.5 minutes and 10+ minutes around 5:17 seem to that time that he was informed.
The alarming thing is that he doesn't make an outbound call. Not one after 5:03. A man who searches all of NH, goes on private property, asks the FBI, writes the governor, but doesn't make one call to daughters cell after she is missing after car crash.
I'm not sure what any of this means but I would think the second you are told of something like this, I would expect numerous calls to her cell and some voicemails.
We didn't have an answer for that. I'm hoping there is one, but we didn't have one. Maybe he stopped traveling and started making calls from payphone?

Sounds like a fun class! That's interesting about the call records. I didn't study the logs on Renner's blogs very closely. That's a good catch.

Laurieisgone wrote:

"Matthew - Lincoln, NH - Feb 9, 2010
I was hunting 7.8 miles from the site of the car crash of Maura and found cloths with duct tape with hair in the tape. I called the state police they said they would call me back. Then 4 days they called me and wanted me to show them where the cloths were since the first call to the police it snowed but we found them and never heard nothing else."
now that right there above is some GOOD police work I tellya. Really on top of things.

Does anyone know what ultimately happened with this?

Did you get assigned your side of the debate or did you choose it?
I wouldn't want that side of the debate, there is
Absolutely zero evidence, circumstantial or physical pointing to her being in the woods, that is not the kind of debate your going to win.
I don't even know what I would say, I guess I would pretty much say what frmLE has been saying but that would just not fly in any class I've ever been in. There's just no evidence supporting the argument and it's based all on assumptions that just aren't logical.
The kids in the other group just had a much easier side of the debate.

[QUOTE who="Lighthouse 101]... Look at the Feb 10th timeline and then look at his phone records. Renner makes a point to mention that LE had to subpeona them because of the sprint intro letter and they weren't given to LE voluntary. It was common knowledge that he was traveling. At 3:20 LE calls his home and leaves a message. Between 5:00 to 5:30 Daughter calls him and tells him that other daughter is missing. looking at phone records incoming phone calls of 7.5 minutes and 10+ minutes around 5:17 seem to that time that he was informed.
The alarming thing is that he doesn't make an outbound call. Not one after 5:03. A man who searches all of NH, goes on private property, asks the FBI, writes the governor, but doesn't make one call to daughters cell after she is missing after car crash.

Maybe he stopped traveling and started making calls from payphone?
[/QUOTE]

However, according to the Grafton County Sheriff's Log for February 10, 2004, Fred called their department at 5:44 PM to say he had heard his daughter was missing and he wanted information from the officer who had been on the scene (Smith). The Log also goes on to indicate that Fred called again very shortly thereafter, concerned he had not yet heard from Smith.

So clearly Fred was making outgoing calls to the Sheriff's department very shortly after hearing that Maura was missing, whether he used his cellphone or not.

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

<quoted text>
From 507 to 549 there are no outbound calls made from his cell. 549 is the last call on the page of the phone bill. Also the 544 LE call to start to search for daughter wasn't made from this phone or at a different time. LE or daughter was not called on this phone bill. Maybe there is another page where he called later but not in this phone bill.
The outbound calls made around 507 were three short calls no longer than a minute.

One question I have on this is that he may have more than one phone and the other question is are only calls that go through shown, attempts, or calls that don't go through not shown? We know Maura was in a dead zone as far as her cell phone goes. Would that explain no outgoing calls because they didn't go through? Asking a question, I don't know the answer.

Bill

Frostman wrote:

<quoted text>
Where exactly does Mr. Renner say that the Sprint telephone records weren't given to LE voluntarily? You don't think that LE subpoenaed all phone records on February 20, 2004 (11 days post disappearance) so that they could obtain information more quickly, do you? What if Mr. Murray's billing cycle ended on February 25th? if that was the case then he probably wouldn't receive a bill in the mail until, say, March 3rd -- therefore a subpoena might have been deemed to be more expeditious. AND why was there such urgency if LE thought this was just a college co-ed from MA choosing to disappear of her own free will in the wilds of New Hampshire?
So Mr. Murray doesn't make another outgoing call from his cell? Ever? Are you certain? Or do you only have the viewable records up until 17:49 on February 10th, 2004 (which is 40 minutes after that incoming call ended)? Did you ever consider that during the conversation with his eldest daughter that Mr. Murray might have been informed that Maura's cell phone was going directly to voice mail? Did it cross your mind that Mr. Murray might have asked his eldest daughter to keep calling Maura's cell phone and that he decided (or was advised) to keep his cell phone line open so LE could contact him?
What was this class you were taking -- Irrational One-Sided Thinking 100? Just kidding, but come on...

My part in this forum comes to an end. I have my studies to attend to so that I can develop rational thinking :). Someone asked how it went so I stated how it went. Whether or not you wish to look into this or discuss it further is up to you. Maybe Renner has more pages of the bill that he is waiting for the book.

I think for those that are worried about two crash sites, red trucks, and roque cops, and scanners, but can dismiss this so easily may have a certain bias. This can be like all the other things just pure circumstance, another piece of just bad luck and poor timing.

Perhaps he didn't call because he knew he already helped her get away from the accident. Maybe he gave her the $4000 cash and a ride to help her start a new life. But right now the only mystery that I want to deal with is what is my GPA for this semester :).

I hope LE has looked into FM´s work records, but surely they must have done this early on??

Too bad Lighthouse didn't have advocate and frosty as "call a friend" for the debate.

good points by both

I know I have said it before but LE would not have release these phone records if Fred was a suspect.

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
One question I have on this is that he may have more than one phone and the other question is are only calls that go through shown, attempts, or calls that don't go through not shown? We know Maura was in a dead zone as far as her cell phone goes. Would that explain no outgoing calls because they didn't go through? Asking a question, I don't know the answer.
Bill

I was wondering the same thing Bill. I was also wondering if messagees were left on Mauras cell would that show up on her bill, I am not sure how that works. I would think it would show up on her bill as nothing gets past the phone companies.

JWB wrote:

I know I have said it before but LE would not have release these phone records if Fred was a suspect.

Were the records actually released by the nhsp?
I thought all that info was released by umass cops through a freedom of information request by renner. I know it has the Nh homicide written on top but I was under the impression it was actually released from the UMass file.
The UMass cops don't have a murder investigation to protect so they weren't under obligation to have their files sealed. When reading those I was under the impression that the nhsp would've been pissed those got released.
But maybe I'm wrong about that, does anyone know if It was actually umass or the nhsp that released his phone record?

Jenkins wrote:

<quoted text>
Were the records actually released by the nhsp?
I thought all that info was released by umass cops through a freedom of information request by renner. I know it has the Nh homicide written on top but I was under the impression it was actually released from the UMass file.
The UMass cops don't have a murder investigation to protect so they weren't under obligation to have their files sealed. When reading those I was under the impression that the nhsp would've been pissed those got released.
But maybe I'm wrong about that, does anyone know if It was actually umass or the nhsp that released his phone record?

That is a good point Jenkins , however it looks lkie to me that the records were requested by the NH homicide dept. I wouldn't think that U mass would have the cover letter adressed to NHSP in their file. I will drop mr renner an Email and see if he can clarify it. It would make a difference where it came from i believe.

Well they definitely were requested by the nhsp, that is clear, it has tw homicide unit's letterhead on it.
But as far as I know that was not released by the nhsp from the case file, but I am not 100% sure about that so it would be great if you could get renner to clarify.

But on his site it looks like he obtained those from a foia request to the UMass pd. UMass obviously would've wanted to get those files back at the beginning, & now, since they know a murder didn't take place in their jurisdiction they aren't investigating a case that they must keep confidential.
Either way those phone records are interesting.
Even if her sister said it was going to voicemail, & he couldn't get through bc the phone was off, I still think he should've left her a message, like he said he did many times...

Lighthouse shouldn't feel bad that his team lost, the she's lost in the woods theory has absolutely zero evidence to back it up. It is fundamentally flawed in logic and would not win a debate in any sort of neutral forum.
That would not be the side of the argument you would want if you were on a debate team
I don't see how anybody can realistically look at this case with an open mind an decide that she got lost in the woods. It is the only theory that has absolutely no circumstantial evidence, none.
If you take everything we know it def appears foul play was Involved.

If you consider what the authorities have had to say about the case I really done see how anyone can think she's lost in the woods. Everything they said in court was under oath, so either they rwally believe she was killed, or they perjured themselves. They said 75% chances of charges being brought, that is a pretty strong statement, they must have something to back that up.

Jenkins wrote:

<quoted text>
Were the records actually released by the nhsp?
I thought all that info was released by umass cops through a freedom of information request by renner. I know it has the Nh homicide written on top but I was under the impression it was actually released from the UMass file.
The UMass cops don't have a murder investigation to protect so they weren't under obligation to have their files sealed. When reading those I was under the impression that the nhsp would've been pissed those got released.
But maybe I'm wrong about that, does anyone know if It was actually umass or the nhsp that released his phone record?

Jenkins- I stand corrected ! "it was not released by the NHSP"

Very interesting indeed. If it was in fact U -mass that released the cell records for Fred , I am at a loss why they would have them in the first place . When I went to college, the campus police were more like security guards.However, I didn't live on campus so I never had any first hand knowledge of their powers.

Although, It was not relayed to me that U-Mass released the records, I find it head scratching that they would have the files that NHSP subpenaed. Does any one else find this odd? The investigation was in the hands of the NHSP. Why would a college police force go to those lengths?