Maura Murray

The rag on the tailpipe was described by The couple people who saw it as being stuffed way up there. That is how cs described it.
What was he doing on his hands and knees lookin deep into the tailpipe? This is a very unusual behavior for an officer responding to a minor accident.
IMO this is a clear indication that smith thought something was wrong with the accident and was thinking foul play from the start. What else could it mean?
The Saturn most likely stalled out before the curve, it seems like smith was looking for something that could cause the car to stall.

He describes the rag being way up the tailpipe. On a Saturn you aren't seeing deep into the tailpipe unless you really want to, so what was he doing looking up the muffler? What was so strange about that accident scene that compelled him to take the extremely strange action of lookin up the tailpipe?

I still say that judging by le's actions on that night that they thought foul play at first, I don't see any other way to interpret their behaviors. One thing is certain though, they did not treat this like a minir one car accident; the same kind of accident that's taken place on that very curve literally hundreds of times over the years.
I be willin to bet that this was the only time that any officer ever checked deep in the muffler

Orko Kringer, with all due respect, although I think suicide is a possibility, I do not think the rag had anything to do with suicide. I also don't think the tow company owner would have told Renner that the rag was shoved way up the tailpipe if it wasn't true, since he would not benefit in any way from this lie.

"The rag in the tailpipe. I spoke to Mike Lavoie again. He says the rag was stuffed way up in there."
http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2011/11/proba...

That begs the question, what made the officer look that far up the tailpipe that night?

Another question that comes to my mind is why would anyone tell their daughter to put a rag in a tailpipe. According to an interview Renner did with the tow truck driver, Mr. Murray told the tow truck driver that he told Maura to put the rag in her tailpipe:

"He noticed the rag and asked Fred Murray about it later. "He said he told her to put it there to keep it from smoking. The car was not running well.""
http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2011/08/lavoi...

I don't think Mr. Murray killed his daughter. I believe that he was telling the truth about this. He was pushing the possibility of foul play, and if that was my angle then I would certainly want the rag checked out to see if the perp sabotaged my daughter's vehicle. The fact that he says he told Maura to put it there and didn't say something like "I hope they did forensics on the rag" is what makes me think he really did tell her to put it there. It was also reported (can't recall where) that Mr. Murray said the rag came from Maura's emergency kit that he had put together for her.

Jenkins, I'm curious, what else besides finding the rag makes you think they suspected foul play at first? I'm not familiar with your local police procedure, so maybe I'm missing something. I thought they suspected she left the accident due to fleeing the scene of a DUI, as that is what everyone seemed to believe those first few days (that she ran away from the scene and would return). I also thought if foul play was suspected, then JM would have stuck around to help.

IS FRANCONIA NH GOING TO CHANGE, FOR THE "GOOD OR THE BAD"?

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/franconia-nh/...

aftermath wrote:

Amy,
Wondering if the current Anchorage I.K. could have previously met the I.K. who in 2008 resided in Plains MT? The one living in Plains MT in 2008 was 39 in 2008. Article indicates it appeared he shot his gf, her 12-year old son and then himself. When I read the article, I could not understand what reason would exist to shoot a 12-year old boy. It did not make sense. At the time, I wondered if there had not been another person present who did the shooting and staged it so it would appear to be a double murder and suicide. If a fourth party did the shooting, possibly he wanted to leave no witnesses behind and therefore shot the boy in addition to the two adults. Take a look at the following:
www.kitsapsun.com/2008/montana murder victims
I researched some of the information in the article and believe the female or possibly both adults mentioned had previous connection w/the State of Washington. Please let me know your thoughts.

Israel Keyes then left his father's home and returned to his cabin. James Keyes heard shots at the house and called the sheriff's department at about 2:30 a.m. Saturday, Arnold said.

The younger Keyes "called his father back after shots were fired," the sheriff said. "He told him he had just shot and killed his girlfriend and her son and was going to shoot himself, and he did."

http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2008/aug/15/mon...
Read more: http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2008/aug/15/mon...

TOUCHÉ...
I think the rag stuffed up tight and high may have been a "TOUCHÉ" of sorts, a message made by Maura herself. The rear passenger side window was down a bit as noted by police. As Maura drove, she may have been changing her mind if the rag was sending the fumes in and she didn't know if she could continue that way, that she didn't want to die. The other reason I say TOUCHÉ is because if maura did run away this could be her final message.

But either way, my thoughts for today are to go FIGHT for a copy of the hard drive. This was Maura's personal property and in her dorm room, not the car. How this could effect any police work in NH, is beyond me. Only IF someone has disected the hard drive and can see she had a contact in NH or VT, would I say it's ok to keep the hard drive from family. BUT even then, it would only be ok if police were watching this person (if that's it even), or if they thought Maura to be a fugitive in some way.
She was looking up the effects of alchohol on the fetus. What time period was that from? What else like that is on that drive? So what if she carried her birth control pills, she's no dummy, she's not going to stop carrying them unless she no longer wishes to take them. In the earliest days, some thought Maura was going for an abortion with that money. Planned parenthood and the like will not give information to just anybody, but I would hope in this case they would confirm or deny for the police if Maura had an appointment. SECRETS, Or as most people would prefer to say, Details of her private life and no ones business to be prying into. I feel uncomfortable to know these things as they are revealed. I just hope that some day Maura sends a message that she is ok so that others can move on.
A best friend, close school chum, or family member might be the only ones to catch and behold something of a clue,~ that may lay in wait on that drive. Servers are important too. I hope police are not just sitting on this.
Connecting the dots seems impossible. Maybe it's in the hard drive and not that she was harmed at all. There's no proof anywhere to say that she's a victim. Well, not that we know of at least.
I don't mean to disrespect Maura or offend any of her loved ones. I'm just hoping to find that "one thing", too.

Hey, whoever gave me clueless, eat my gritts.
The father of the IK mentioned above, lived right near his son and knew there was trouble brewing that night. He heard his own son tell that he had just shot his girlfriend and her son, and was now going to shoot himself. This post was to help show that there likely wasn't anyone else or a forth person as was noted earlier.

amy researches wrote:

I don't think Mr. Murray killed his daughter. I believe that he was telling the truth about this. He was pushing the possibility of foul play, and if that was my angle then I would certainly want the rag checked out to see if the perp sabotaged my daughter's vehicle. The fact that he says he told Maura to put it there and didn't say something like "I hope they did forensics on the rag" is what makes me think he really did tell her to put it there. It was also reported (can't recall where) that Mr. Murray said the rag came from Maura's emergency kit that he had put together for her.

Amy - hello. I don't want to come off rude or agressive about this "rag" thing. I agree that there is a strong chance that whatever happened to MM it was of her own actions.

FM makes mention of him giving her the rag as part of her car kit. I have never heard of anything else being listed that was found in her car that would classify as part of a car kit. You seem to be good at research and if you can find the rest of the contents or belongs of mm's car that would make up an actual car kit that would help.

I'd like to be certain that a car kit even existed before we can say that the rag was part of it.

On another note - I have reread the two letters written to the governor and I am greeted with more questions. In the first letter FM makes mention that the family investigator interviews RF before LE does. I believe that it was within 8 days of mm going missing. So a PI was helping them early in the case.

In the second letter FM appeals to the governor to ask LE to give the family information so that they can continue the search. He specifically asks for mm's computer. He says that "if he knew where she was going it would help them direct their search efforts." The family had access to MM's computer for months I believe. By FM's on admission they had a PI helping them very early on in the case while they had the computer in their posession. I can only assume that the PI would have asked to look at the computer.

I'm not stating that anyone is guilty of anything, but I think due to the nature of this case I don't think anyone should be believed unless there is ample proof to back up what they are saying.

just me wrote:

TOUCHÉ...
I think the rag stuffed up tight and high may have been a "TOUCHÉ" of sorts, a message made by Maura herself. The rear passenger side window was down a bit as noted by police. As Maura drove, she may have been changing her mind if the rag was sending the fumes in and she didn't know if she could continue that way, that she didn't want to die. The other reason I say TOUCHÉ is because if maura did run away this could be her final message.
But either way, my thoughts for today are to go FIGHT for a copy of the hard drive. This was Maura's personal property and in her dorm room, not the car. How this could effect any police work in NH, is beyond me. Only IF someone has disected the hard drive and can see she had a contact in NH or VT, would I say it's ok to keep the hard drive from family. BUT even then, it would only be ok if police were watching this person (if that's it even), or if they thought Maura to be a fugitive in some way.
She was looking up the effects of alchohol on the fetus. What time period was that from? What else like that is on that drive? So what if she carried her birth control pills, she's no dummy, she's not going to stop carrying them unless she no longer wishes to take them. In the earliest days, some thought Maura was going for an abortion with that money. Planned parenthood and the like will not give information to just anybody, but I would hope in this case they would confirm or deny for the police if Maura had an appointment. SECRETS, Or as most people would prefer to say, Details of her private life and no ones business to be prying into. I feel uncomfortable to know these things as they are revealed. I just hope that some day Maura sends a message that she is ok so that others can move on.
A best friend, close school chum, or family member might be the only ones to catch and behold something of a clue,~ that may lay in wait on that drive. Servers are important too. I hope police are not just sitting on this.
Connecting the dots seems impossible. Maybe it's in the hard drive and not that she was harmed at all. There's no proof anywhere to say that she's a victim. Well, not that we know of at least.
I don't mean to disrespect Maura or offend any of her loved ones. I'm just hoping to find that "one thing", too.

I just posted about the hard drive but I'd like to do it again. PI's were assisting the family while the hard drive was still in their posession. I find it absolutely mind numbing that a copy wasn't made, or that it wasn't looked at by the PI's already.

The hard drive would have been the third checked item when mm went missing. First would be the car, than the woods, and then the computer to see what was suppossed to be her final destination.

Please also note that since Billy's mother paid the phone bill they also had access to mm cell phone records.

Bobjenkins-OG wrote:

The rag on the tailpipe was described by The couple people who saw it as being stuffed way up there. That is how cs described it.
What was he doing on his hands and knees lookin deep into the tailpipe? This is a very unusual behavior for an officer responding to a minor accident.
IMO this is a clear indication that smith thought something was wrong with the accident and was thinking foul play from the start. What else could it mean?
The Saturn most likely stalled out before the curve, it seems like smith was looking for something that could cause the car to stall.
He describes the rag being way up the tailpipe. On a Saturn you aren't seeing deep into the tailpipe unless you really want to, so what was he doing looking up the muffler? What was so strange about that accident scene that compelled him to take the extremely strange action of lookin up the tailpipe?
I still say that judging by le's actions on that night that they thought foul play at first, I don't see any other way to interpret their behaviors. One thing is certain though, they did not treat this like a minir one car accident; the same kind of accident that's taken place on that very curve literally hundreds of times over the years.
I be willin to bet that this was the only time that any officer ever checked deep in the muffler

She crashed into a snow bank. Snow leaves marks and imprints. I think with no one at the scene and LE doing a little work noticed a bunch of footprints, and maybe a hand print or two near the tail pipe. LE then probably decided to bend down and take a look.

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

<quoted text>
Amy - hello. I don't want to come off rude or agressive about this "rag" thing. I agree that there is a strong chance that whatever happened to MM it was of her own actions.
FM makes mention of him giving her the rag as part of her car kit. I have never heard of anything else being listed that was found in her car that would classify as part of a car kit. You seem to be good at research and if you can find the rest of the contents or belongs of mm's car that would make up an actual car kit that would help.
I'd like to be certain that a car kit even existed before we can say that the rag was part of it.
On another note - I have reread the two letters written to the governor and I am greeted with more questions. In the first letter FM makes mention that the family investigator interviews RF before LE does. I believe that it was within 8 days of mm going missing. So a PI was helping them early in the case.
In the second letter FM appeals to the governor to ask LE to give the family information so that they can continue the search. He specifically asks for mm's computer. He says that "if he knew where she was going it would help them direct their search efforts." The family had access to MM's computer for months I believe. By FM's on admission they had a PI helping them very early on in the case while they had the computer in their posession. I can only assume that the PI would have asked to look at the computer.
I'm not stating that anyone is guilty of anything, but I think due to the nature of this case I don't think anyone should be believed unless there is ample proof to back up what they are saying.

Hi Lighthouse. I don't think you have come off as rude or aggressive.

You have a good point about the kit. But I have no way to find out whether a kit existed or didn't. I have asked multiple times about whether she was known to carry a flashlight in her car or in this kit, and if so, whether the flashlight was missing. I have never gotten an answer about that.

The first PI on the case, that I know of, was RC Stevens.

"Investigator joins search for woman
March 2, 2004

A private investigator is assisting in the search for a missing Massachusetts woman who was last seen three weeks ago following a minor car crash in northern New Hampshire. R. C. Stevens of PSII Inc., a Northampton, Mass., private investigation agency, is helping to look into the disappearance of 21-year-old Maura Murray, who was last seen the night of Feb. 9. It appears that Murray, a nursing student at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst, was planning a getaway. She lied to professors about a death in the family, said she would be gone from class for the week, then packed her belongings as if she were moving out. Her family and friends believe she was given a ride and want police to treat her disappearance as a criminal investigation.(AP)"
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusett...

If I hired a PI, that would be one of the first things I would want to have checked out. I am wondering if it's possible that LE removed the hard drive before giving the computer back to the family, and perhaps LE was re-collecting the computer for forensics -- to see if there were third party fingerprints or DNA left on the computer? Does anyone know for sure?

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

<quoted text>
She crashed into a snow bank. Snow leaves marks and imprints. I think with no one at the scene and LE doing a little work noticed a bunch of footprints, and maybe a hand print or two near the tail pipe. LE then probably decided to bend down and take a look.

But if the car wasn't right there where they said it was, Sharon, Billy, Fred, etc were all looking at the wrong spot! Perhaps missing any and all relevant clues, like more than one set of footprints or well, the list goes on and on.......

aftermath wrote:

<quoted text>
Hi Bumping for Maura,
Yes I do. Believe the culprit possibly lives in or around the Woodville area (somewhere between where they found MM's Saturn and the Fairlee VT area). Regarding the "other"(?????) I. Keyes you might find the following interesting:
www.kitsapsun.com/2008/montana murder victims
Always thought their may have been 4 people present in that cabin. Why? Why on earth murder a 12-year old? To me it sounded like someone who planned to remain very much alive did not want to leave a witness behind. It was certainly a tragedy, but in my opinion, based on the murder of the 12-year old boy, I did not believe it to be a double murder and suicide. In my opinion it sounded more like 3 murders for some other reason. ID theft? Some other reason solely for personal gain? I remembered the name because it is so unusual. I'd read of that name appearing in the 1800's, etc (hx)....but it seems like this name is now appearing twice in just a few years.

Hi there aftermath,
Thanks for your response.
So your thery is that a possible perp behind Maura´s disappearance likely lives within the Woodsville,NH-Fairlee,VT area. OK.
So, how would this Israel Keyes come into that picture, if so?
Have I missed something here or did Keyes actually live within that general area at the time of Maura´s vanishing in early 2004?
If Maura´s disappearance actually happened because of foul play committed by a perp living within say a 50 mile radius or so of Woodsville, wouldn´t it seem more likely that such a theoretical perp would be someone with far more geographical knowledge of the area than someone like Keyes who - while without doubt a monster - has never resided in the Connecticut Valley area of NH/VT on a permanent basis?
I just can´t help feeling that the Israel Keyes angle doesn´t quite pan out in relation to Maura and other possible victims in the same general area.
Again, presuming that Maura actually was a victim of foul play.

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

<quoted text>
I just posted about the hard drive but I'd like to do it again. PI's were assisting the family while the hard drive was still in their posession. I find it absolutely mind numbing that a copy wasn't made, or that it wasn't looked at by the PI's already.
The hard drive would have been the third checked item when mm went missing. First would be the car, than the woods, and then the computer to see what was suppossed to be her final destination.
Please also note that since Billy's mother paid the phone bill they also had access to mm cell phone records.

I think many missed the boat when this first happened. Linda Salamone reflected that maybe she could have helped in some way....if only someone had called her after the news of MM missing.
Sharon didn't start examining that bill enough to know if police, PI's or the like had even looked into these last calls thoroughly. Something like 8 or 10 months had gone by before this came to light.
I too find it hard to believe the family did not at least try to read her computer. At some point they were told UMASS made the first hard drive copy, so maybe at that point they thought they were going to be included on any findings?

Orko Kringer wrote:

amy researches,
the 911 logs actually note that the responding officer is the one who found the rag in the tailpipe.
It's in the logs the following day (after maura's wreck) as is a 911 dispatcher attempting to get a hold of police because fred murray has something very urgently important to tell them about his daughter.
It is important to understand about the rag, because if the rag had been stuffed way deep into the tailpipe like James Renner suggested with his blog post, then there is no way the responding officer sees it in the pitch dark while he is investigating an abandoned car.
If the rag was loosely placed in the tailpipe (which is likely how it was) then I think we can rule out easily scenarios involving some sort of sabatoge taking place where someone wants to abduct maura by disabling her car.
The rag in the tailpipe could've very likely been an amateurish (on the spot, improvised) suicide attempt.

So, about this tailpipe thing. I did a search for 1996 Saturns like Maura's, and the tailpipe is clearly visible when you are looking at the back of the car - it is not hidden underneath like some cars. Since it was dark, the LE officer would have been shining his flashlight all around the car and would have illuminated the tailpipe without bending down. If he was looking for any kind of evidence around the car, he undoubtedly would have looked underneath the vehicle. All he had to do was bend down to see the inside of the tailpipe. He DID see the rag, so obviously it wasn't stuffed inside far enough to not be seen. The very fact that it WAS dark and that he had to use a flashlight would have made it easier to see the rag than daylight.

Here is a link to a tailpipe of a 1996 Saturn: http://static.cargurus.com/images/site/2009/1... It may disappear, just do a Google image search for a 1996 Saturn and you will find others.

maruchan,

that does make a lot of sense.

I just wonder how much investigating (other than looking for alcohol and maura) that the responding officer would've been interested in. Remember, he was not under the impression that he was working a crime scene at the time he responded.

Here is a link to maura's actual back end from her car. In this picture, you can't see her tailpipe at all (partly because of the tall grass I'm sure) anyway, maybe someone with some good photoshop on their computer can lighten this picture up and bring out more details about the tailpipe.

http://www.google.com/imgres...

amy researches wrote:

.
Jenkins, I'm curious, what else besides finding the rag makes you think they suspected foul play at first? I'm not familiar with your local police procedure, so maybe I'm missing something. I thought they suspected she left the accident due to fleeing the scene of a DUI, as that is what everyone seemed to believe those first few days (that she ran away from the scene and would return). I also thought if foul play was suspected, then JM would have stuck around to help.

There are a few strange things that le did that night that makes me think that they initially thought foul play, besides looking up the muffler.

One major thing is the length of time CS spent on the scene. He was on scene for almost 2 hours; this is not normal for a minor crash. Remember that the story is that they believed it to be a minor once car accident, the same kind o accident that's happened hundreds of times at the wb curve. Well it is not normal to stay on scene that long. Cars spin put around curves all the time in winter, if le stayed on scene for 2 hours at every minor accident the state would be broke by February. Generally after a minor accident le stays on scene for a short time; makes some notes about the accident and moves on. What was so strange about this accident that caused CS to feel the need to start some sort of investigation? It's fairly clear that's what he was doing.

He also kept all the emergency responders away fr the vehicle...why?? What would be the purpose of that except to preserve evidence? I'm not 100% on this but from what I've scene the ems/fire people are allowed all over normal accident scenes.

They went out and searched, even enlisting the help of the sbd, but they never searched east..why? The only reason I can think of is that they knew she didn't go east. If they thought she was walking on foot logic would dictate that all 4 cars take a different direction and look for her, but they didn't go east. What did they know that night that caused this strange behavior?
Just the fact that the sbd was looking for her at all shows that they thought something was up; and she wasn't on foot. She supposedly was scared of him when he showed up in his bus; well wouldn't she be scared shitless of him if he now came and found her in his private vehicle?? He said that he even went and looked down at French pond to see if she was in an ice fishing shanty. This is not something you would do if you were lookin for a young girl from out of town who you think got lost on foot. How would she know about French pond?? How would she know there's fishing shacks down there? That is something you do if you think that she was picked up by a local and brought somewhere.

Le also had a strong interest in trucks, particularly red trucks the night after she went missing. Apart every vehicle pulled over that night was a truck, 3 of them being red; which is about 1/4 of the vehicles pulled. Why were they do interested in trucks that night? We know that there was a witness who saw a red truck parked with its door open near the scene at the right time. This truck's actions were so unusual, so out of the ordinary
That the witness felt compelled to tell le about it that night. It appears that le took it seriously.

There are a few more things that make me believe le initially thought foul play was involved too
But I'm forgetting them right now, I will post em when I think of em

Lighthouse 101 wrote:

<quoted text>
She crashed into a snow bank. Snow leaves marks and imprints. I think with no one at the scene and LE doing a little work noticed a bunch of footprints, and maybe a hand print or two near the tail pipe. LE then probably decided to bend down and take a look.

That sounds logical lighthouse but they witnesses do not report anything like this at all. They specifically say there was one set of footprints leading away from the car and no other footprints.

I would think that if footprints/handprints like this existed somebody would've said something about it as that would put to rest any debate over when the rag got placed there. Scarinza himself seems very confused about the rag, he calls it an anomaly. If there were prints around it that caused CS to check I doubt he would b confused about it. They still wouldn't know exactly why but they would know who and when it got placed.

Maybe I'm crazy but I think the rag could habe played a much bigger role in her dissapearance than anyone thinks. Think about it; we have several mechanics who are experts on cars who say that a rag could be used to disable a vehicle. We have evidence that her car stalled going into the curve rather than her spinning out after the curve. The car also started up just fine after the crash do it didn't just die on her. We have a rag stuffed deep in the muffler and a missing girl.

Basically a rag can be used to stall out a car, her car did stall out & a rag was found in her muffler & now she's missing.

Bobjenkins

On Feb 10, they (police investigators) did absolutely nothing concerning the accident location.

In fact it was something like 39 hours after maura went missing that any kind of search (for maura/search for evidence) took place. the initial search done the night maura went missing was to locate a drunk trying to get out of trouble, nothing more and nothing less.

Waiting almost 40 hours to do anything of substance would be very odd behavior by LE if they all along were suspecting a crime took place.

They would've roped off the wreck site immediately and not let a whole day pass with nothing being done.

We can debate all day on what maura was up to (running away, starting a new life, ending her life etc....

But when it comes to law enforcement, I am satisfied that they NEVER have felt maura's disappearance involved any type of foul play and have even gone through the steps of concealing information so that Fred can't expose that about them for it and face a lawsuit for negligence.

They can label her disappearance as "Suspicious" all they want too. They can say on record that they haven't ruled out foul play and they can even come on record and make up this whole 75 percent chance of a conviction nonsense ... But at the end of the day its their actions (in the early days of maura's disappearance up until now) that point out that they haven't pursued this case (maybe with good reason) as a crime taking place or something sinister going on.

Hi Jenkins - When I first heard the rumors (IN 2004) my first thought was it sounded to me as if cs was securing what he thought to be a stolen vehicle. It also seemed like CS and SBD were looking for the driver not necessarily MM. Back then that seemed crazy. But Now all these years later I'm not so sure.

On Renner's blog there's a letter to Cheif Williams from Woodsville Rescue & Ambulance dated 3/8/04 with an interesting sentence in the last paragraph.(Murray 002-1.pdf) It reads "Also, Dick Guy mentioned he had noticed a couple of odd things at the MVA that he is curious if HPD was made aware of."

What did he notice? Rumors travel like wild fires in our small communities so I find it hard to believe Dick was referring to the rag almost 30 days after the accident. Especially since it was mentioned in the Caledonian the week of the accident.

Bobjenkins-og wrote:

<quoted text>Basically a rag can be used to stall out a car, her car did stall out & a rag was found in her muffler & now she's missing.

Still absurd. I thought that everyone knew now that it isn't possible to stall a car in this manner? She crashed her car, and then she fled the scene. I suggest anyone, who believes this, should try it. That is what investigation means. Is a scenario legitimate or not. There are people here saying this can happen. Of course there are some saying the rag was jammed way up the muffler, and others saying it was hanging out. Who is correct?

I am so looking forward to when everyone goes over the trailer hitch information again though.

Bill