Maura Murray

Wowzer has previously stated women walk and jog, and walk their dogs along this road. if i understand correctly, no one has previously disappeared from this vicinity over many years, if ever.
cars slide off of these roads in rural and suburban new england all the time; only onlookers with 20/20 hindsight would suppose the first responders could piece together MM's mysterious, personal circumstances at first glance.
they are not mind-readers. in fact, the most evident, immediate clue appeared to be alcohol consumption.

Orko Kringer wrote:

<quoted text>
maura's car was a very dark green (almost black) color of car.
At night with very little light visibility and right after a rounded curve, that type of car would be highly vulnerable to being struck if left there.
They had to move it that night.

Mauras car was not dark green. Right after the rounded curve? Where do you get your info from? When you state LE had to tow her car that night what did LE tell you that there reasoning was for towing Mauras car that night? Thank you.

hi, snowy. i don't know if your post above was specifically in response to my question re: abandoned vehicles in the area, but if it was, please permit me to clarify my use of 'abandoned'.

in much earlier sections of this thread, wth-the-original many times indicated – based on his own experiences – that drivers under the influence would often flee, or try to flee, the scene and leave their vehicles until they were sober, then later return to claim them from where they were abandoned. what i'm interested to know more about from him is the law enforcement protocol with regard to these vehicles, if they would by default leave them where they were abandoned or tow them, etc.

i'm also curious to know from anyone that may live in the vicinity of maura's disappearance if, in their experience, they have seen vehicles that may have been abandoned by someone intoxicated and later driven away. of course, it may not be easy to distinguish between an abandoned vehicle and a vehicle purposefully pulled off to the side of the road by hikers, hunters, etc. i directed that question to wowzer, jwb and jenkins because i believe they all have indicated they live in or around the area. if there others familiar with that area, i would be interested to receive their responses also.

anyhow, i don't know if you were directing your comment to me, but i wanted to clarify since your post sounded like you maybe thought i was insinuating it was a dangerous area where people were going missing. if not, then i wrote a whole post of nothing that you can happily disregard.

whatif wrote:

hi, snowy. i don't know if your post above was specifically in response to my question re: abandoned vehicles in the area, but if it was, please permit me to clarify my use of 'abandoned'.
in much earlier sections of this thread, wth-the-original many times indicated – based on his own experiences – that drivers under the influence would often flee, or try to flee, the scene and leave their vehicles until they were sober, then later return to claim them from where they were abandoned. what i'm interested to know more about from him is the law enforcement protocol with regard to these vehicles, if they would by default leave them where they were abandoned or tow them, etc.
i'm also curious to know from anyone that may live in the vicinity of maura's disappearance if, in their experience, they have seen vehicles that may have been abandoned by someone intoxicated and later driven away. of course, it may not be easy to distinguish between an abandoned vehicle and a vehicle purposefully pulled off to the side of the road by hikers, hunters, etc. i directed that question to wowzer, jwb and jenkins because i believe they all have indicated they live in or around the area. if there others familiar with that area, i would be interested to receive their responses also.
anyhow, i don't know if you were directing your comment to me, but i wanted to clarify since your post sounded like you maybe thought i was insinuating it was a dangerous area where people were going missing. if not, then i wrote a whole post of nothing that you can happily disregard.

I know that you did not direct you questions to me. But how can LE say the driver was intoxicated unless they saw her to make this statement? JWB has claimed to live in or around the area in previous postings. But yet he cannot remember signs and has to google roads. To me this is a red flag. Iam not a local and I remember alot of signs and roads.

Snowy wrote:

Wowzer has previously stated women walk and jog, and walk their dogs along this road. if i understand correctly, no one has previously disappeared from this vicinity over many years, if ever.
cars slide off of these roads in rural and suburban new england all the time; only onlookers with 20/20 hindsight would suppose the first responders could piece together MM's mysterious, personal circumstances at first glance.
they are not mind-readers. in fact, the most evident, immediate clue appeared to be alcohol consumption.

I talked with several of the first responders in person. Sorry but as you state immediate clue is alcohol assumtion you are incorrect. They did not bring up alcohol at all. What did first responders tell you?

citigirl wrote:

<quoted text>Mauras car was not dark green. Right after the rounded curve? Where do you get your info from? When you state LE had to tow her car that night what did LE tell you that there reasoning was for towing Mauras car that night? Thank you.

First off, please learn to read. I never said LE told me anything.

Second, being a third cousin to an early 20's girl doesn't equate to actually being a true family member. So quit posing. Thank you.

Lastly,
I honestly have never bothered to learn if maura's car was officially black or whether it was one of the gazillion dark shades of green that saturn has in its automobile line. The point was her car was a dark color which only adds to its vulnerability of being left out on the side of a road at night.

The SBD (as its been reported) told maura to turn on her flashers because ... he was worried she/her car was just a sitting duck to be hit where it had ended up at.

hi, citigirl. you are right that no one – not even law enforcement – can determine why a vehicle is abandoned, especially with regards to driver intoxication, if the driver of the abandoned vehicle is (by the meaning of 'abandoned') not with with the vehicle. i really only bring up intoxication as a reason for abandoning a vehicle because wth-the-original discussed it way back as a reason that drivers will abandon vehicles.

my main interest in this line of inquiry is more about how law enforcement, when they come upon abandoned vehicles, deals with them. i'm interested in knowing from the locals in the area if they ever see vehicles that, to them, appear abandoned, or if it so unusual an occurrence in the area of maura's disappearance that it is almost a non-existent. the idea of intoxication is really secondary and not integral to my question. i hope this clarifies.

whatif wrote:

hi, snowy. i don't know if your post above was specifically in response to my question re: abandoned vehicles in the area, but if it was, please permit me to clarify my use of 'abandoned'.
in much earlier sections of this thread, wth-the-original many times indicated – based on his own experiences – that drivers under the influence would often flee, or try to flee, the scene and leave their vehicles until they were sober, then later return to claim them from where they were abandoned. what i'm interested to know more about from him is the law enforcement protocol with regard to these vehicles, if they would by default leave them where they were abandoned or tow them, etc.
i'm also curious to know from anyone that may live in the vicinity of maura's disappearance if, in their experience, they have seen vehicles that may have been abandoned by someone intoxicated and later driven away. of course, it may not be easy to distinguish between an abandoned vehicle and a vehicle purposefully pulled off to the side of the road by hikers, hunters, etc. i directed that question to wowzer, jwb and jenkins because i believe they all have indicated they live in or around the area. if there others familiar with that area, i would be interested to receive their responses also.
anyhow, i don't know if you were directing your comment to me, but i wanted to clarify since your post sounded like you maybe thought i was insinuating it was a dangerous area where people were going missing. if not, then i wrote a whole post of nothing that you can happily disregard.

hi, whatif ~ my post was in the spirit of trying to present the not-so-unusual circumstance of a car sliding off a rural road, and then framing it as a common presentation where alcohol consumption and a missing driver (who may have abandoned due to intoxication and / or missing for having gone to ask for help) the first appearance to first responders.

i know WTF/Bill has supported this position over a number of years from his first hand experience, and with the caveat that....if only Maura had stayed with her car.

my frame of reference is not scientific; it is only my experience from living in new england, as many of us do, and vacationing in northern new england over the years.

i didn't intend to argue with or diminish your questions to Bill / WTF, and hope and trust he'll soon answer you.
i also wanted to make the point, as i've done before, that it's understandable that a family would say...."if only....the authorities would have done this or that, in a timely way".... but that criticism can be made only in hindsight.
after all, first responders saw evidence of alcohol. how would they know a young woman would go missing? there were no apparent signs of a physical struggle, or evidence of bleeding / injury.

oh....and whatif....
on one occasion, before front wheel drive and cell phones, we landed in a ditch with minus 21 degree temps, winds blowing sideways, no visibility, and with kids in the backseat. we were pulled out from that long, unlit, steep rural road by some generous, "local" soul. not an uncommon occurrence, i suppose. it seems winters have become much warmer since those days.

in another, i'm embarrassed to say i couldn't put a truck into 4WD, and a guy came along to help me. same area.

we've slid around in a 4WD 6,000 pound SUV in the early days when there was no traction control....and were pulled out with a rope. same area.

i'm just saying....what happened to Maura would not be so unusual, at least at first glance, from my anecdotal experiences.

but, i know....that wasn't the point you were trying to make.

FrmLE wrote:

<quoted text>
If the car has been in an accident is is almost always towed. As in, 99% of the time. Its is rarely, almost never towed to a police impound lot, it is almost always towed to the tow company impound lot or yard.
Abandonded vehicles are usually left for a while if the car does not obstruct traffic, if it is off the road on the shoulder. If it sits there a while and it doesn't seem like it is going to be fixed or moved, it is usually towed.
I don't recall ever trying to contact the owner for a car that is just sitting there, unless I know the car and know the person.
Simple answer is this.
Car abandonded after minor accident, towed to tow yard.
Car abandonded due to mechanical problems obstructing traffic, towed to tow yard.
Car abandonded not obstructing traffic, usually left there for a day or so.

Reposted.

citigirl wrote:

<quoted text>I talked with several of the first responders in person. Sorry but as you state immediate clue is alcohol assumtion you are incorrect. They did not bring up alcohol at all. What did first responders tell you?

was is not reported, and common knowledge, that there was alcohol spill inside the car? and later....red liquid, smelling of alcohol, was found in a container under the car? do you dispute this?

snowy, thank you for posting more of your thoughts on my question of abandoned vehicles on the sides of roadways. your perspective and recounting of your experiences are appreciated. back when i first started posting, i mentioned my interest (bordering on obsession) with Maura's disappearance. when you asked me why, my answer then – as it is still now – is the mystery of the seeming improbability of her disappearing in such a short window of time with so many people in the area and others converging on her location within minutes.

for any posters who may be wondering what i'm getting at, i am going somewhere with my inquiry into how law enforcement typically handles abandoned vehicles. however, i'm wanting to get some more input before i throw what is truly just my own speculation out here for you all to dig into.

This was not an abandonded vehicle. This was an accident, was called in by several people, who reported a woman had an accident and the car was unable to move from the scene.

This is not an abandonded vehicle.

In my experience the police did exactly the same thing that we have done for the last 25 years or so, call a tow truck, do an accident report, talk to witnesses, and look for the driver.

whatif wrote:

snowy, thank you for posting more of your thoughts on my question of abandoned vehicles on the sides of roadways. your perspective and recounting of your experiences are appreciated. back when i first started posting, i mentioned my interest (bordering on obsession) with Maura's disappearance. when you asked me why, my answer then – as it is still now – is the mystery of the seeming improbability of her disappearing in such a short window of time with so many people in the area and others converging on her location within minutes.
for any posters who may be wondering what i'm getting at, i am going somewhere with my inquiry into how law enforcement typically handles abandoned vehicles. however, i'm wanting to get some more input before i throw what is truly just my own speculation out here for you all to dig into.

yes, informed posters with LE and first responder experience are the respected go-to people here.

i recall the first media reports in the boston area about the 21-year-old UMASS nursing / honor student who went missing in a matter of 10 minutes....and, like you, found that possibility mysterious and seemingly improbable.

Orko Kringer wrote:

<quoted text>
First off, please learn to read. I never said LE told me anything.
Second, being a third cousin to an early 20's girl doesn't equate to actually being a true family member. So quit posing. Thank you.
Lastly,
I honestly have never bothered to learn if maura's car was officially black or whether it was one of the gazillion dark shades of green that saturn has in its automobile line. The point was her car was a dark color which only adds to its vulnerability of being left out on the side of a road at night.
The SBD (as its been reported) told maura to turn on her flashers because ... he was worried she/her car was just a sitting duck to be hit where it had ended up at.

Orko Kringer"maura's car was a very dark green (almost black) color of car.

At night with very little light visibility and right after a rounded curve, that type of car would be highly vulnerable to being struck if left there.

They had to move it that night." If you didnt know the color of the car why would you post that is dark green almost black? You also stated they had to move it that night. LE had the vehicle towed. I was only inquiring as to how you knew the vehicle needed to be moved. Im blood related regardless of your opinion. You are telling me to quit posting? I thought this was a public forum where anyone can post? Maybe Im wrong but I thought I read in the past you were a journalist. Hope not.

thanks, frmle. point taken. i only use the term 'abandoned' in the sense that the vehicle's operator (maura) was not with the vehicle when first responders arrived. maybe she fled or maybe she was abducted. whichever it was, her absence from the scene upon their arrival left the vehicle 'abandoned.' i will certainly concede that law enforcement would treat the scene using a set of protocols based on the vehicle having been crashed instead of just merely parked on the side of the road. does that distinction make any sense, or do you feel it is a meaningless one?

FrmLE wrote:

This was not an abandonded vehicle. This was an accident, was called in by several people, who reported a woman had an accident and the car was unable to move from the scene.
This is not an abandonded vehicle.
In my experience the police did exactly the same thing that we have done for the last 25 years or so, call a tow truck, do an accident report, talk to witnesses, and look for the driver.

perhaps folks like me are incorrectly using the term "abandoned" to mean the driver and / or occupants were not at the vehicle / scene of the accident when authorities arrived.
more correctly....the vehicle was abandoned
but it was not "an abandoned vehicle".
is that an important difference?

Snowy wrote:

<quoted text>
was is not reported, and common knowledge, that there was alcohol spill inside the car? and later....red liquid, smelling of alcohol, was found in a container under the car? do you dispute this?

Im not disputing there was alcohol in the car. I dont know whether or not Maura was or was not drinking that night and neither does any one else. There is no proof either way because she was not there. Its only assumption by others.

citigirl wrote:

<quoted text>Im not disputing there was alcohol in the car. I dont know whether or not Maura was or was not drinking that night and neither does any one else. There is no proof either way because she was not there. Its only assumption by others.

agree; no proof as to who was driving or who was drinking. i don't believe i ever said Maura was....just that evidence of alcohol consumption (open containers) might lead authorities to consider possibilities for the missing occupants in that light.

FrmLE wrote:

<quoted text>
This is an incorrect assumption.
Just something to consider, do you know that they lost a Lear Jet in those same woods for 3 years?
A lear jet that does not decompose or get eaten and spread about, and is slghtly larger, and shinier, than a 120 pound body.
Do you know that an elderly woman was lost in an area much much smaller than where Maura could have gone, and it took MONTHS to find her body despite a massive search that commenced within hours of when she went missing?
Just something to consider.

Those "same" woods is a bit of a stretch. The jet was 30 miles away (south) as the crow flies, 8 miles from the nearest road and in much rougher and higher terrain, but the point is noted. I still stand by my assumption given the area she disappeared in.