Maura Murray

Frostman wrote:

What’s in a dream?
Go ahead… fire away, my shoulders are broad!
On Brian Ladd’s dreams website ( http://www.briansdreams.com/warnings014.htm ) he intuits that MM dialed a toll-free number – 1-800-253-457_? or 1-800-258-457_?
One of those possible configurations is a number for payday loans and another is a credit card/financial services company.
Perhaps… the “Londonderry ping” is just a credit card company calling to ask for their payment. Yes, the 1-800 number would be traceable but… sometimes those companies have their agents call from “unknown”,“unregistered”,“phan tom” numbers if they are unable to get a reply from the cardholder.

psychic-babble-rewind by undercover ducks.

Beagle wrote:

<quoted text>
No, it's not MY theory. And you know that. It's not necessary to be pushy and sarcastic.
I merely want to know how reliable was SBD's ID of a person at the Saturn's crash scene. It would be nice to be able to rely on it more, but I don't see how that can happen, given what the public knows. Maybe I've missed something and his ID is very reliable, but I haven't myself seen that information anywhere.
If SBD said, for example, that Maura wore Banana Republic jeans, a purple and white Eddie Bauer ski jacket with a Cannon ski pass on it, a Brooks Brothers white cable-knit sweater, a gold necklace, and a pair of L.L. Bean hiking boots, then that would be pretty reliable because it would be so specific and include several items that could be compared to Maura's wardrobe. But I am not myself aware that his description was very specific.
Fast, eyewitness accounts of what someone claims to have seen are notoriously unreliable. Sometimes they're right, but many times they are wrong.
It seems that her presence at the WB curve depends mostly on SBD's visual ID of Maura, but we don't know how tested, how reliable it was. We don't know how time and talk may have influenced it. If Maura's behavior was unpredictable because of stress (or whatever), then SBD may have been in some kind of "action mode" with its own kind of stress-like effect.
If, for example, I said I stopped my vehicle in the dark at the same crash scene and later swore up and down that I saw Maura Murray, what would I be saying? That a young female was dressed like a million other New England college students, stood about 65-70 inches tall, had medium length dark hair, was light skinned? That would include a lot of people. Would you even totally believe me?
How long did SBD spend looking at her? 30 seconds? 45 seconds? Was he shown pictures of Maura alongside pictures of other young women - sort of a line-up?
How many untrained male observers would be able to say what the last stranger they talked to in the dark for under a minute was wearing?

agree. you've elaborated on points i've made, as well. no positive id of MM at the scene of the accident, or running down the road...as reported by CW several months after the event.

Wowzer the real one wrote:

<quoted text>
I find most of your theories nonsensical. I doubt anyone had to tell her the police would be coming. She had an accident and her car was stuck on a sharp curve in a dangerous position. What do you mean by low functioning folks?
I think that anyone if stressed enough or afraid enough can go into the woods to avoid whatever they're running from.
How can you say with any certainty that she valued her life and wouldn't risk it when that's exactly what she did when she headed to NH in the winter in an unreliable car without telling anyone she was leaving, refused any help from the SBD, chose not to go to any of the 5 houses in plain view to ask for help or to use their phone, and walked away from her car in the opposite direction of where she just came from where she had passed a store and several houses all within walking distance.
It appears that she didn't consider the consequences of any of her actions that night or maybe she did know what the consequences would be.
IMHO I think unfortunately she made some very poor choices that night but they were her choices to make. No one can be blamed for the actions she herself chose to take.

AMEN.

aftermath wrote:

<quoted text>
There WAS snow in the woods at the time she disappeared. If she ran, she ran on the highway. No way that a 21-year old female would run off into the woods even if she in advance would have known that you and "Snowy" would later be working overtime to push the "she was drunk and wanted to hide, we get'em all the time," theory. SBD did not tell her that he was going to call the police. Running off in the woods? Do you believe she thought she'd come across the yellow brick road in the woods? Land of sunshine, rest and opportunity? She was not stupid. I do agree that many low-functioning folk might try something like running off in the woods (even when they're not drinking). Familiar with the outdoors, Maura was aware of the dangers of ignoring the elements. She was an intelligent young woman who valued her life and would not risk it wandering around in the woods in February(just to avoid the police). She would have considered the consequence of what happens after trotting off into the woods? She would have considered the consequence of choosing that option. Your runaway into the woods theory is as nonsensical as the "Aliens got her" theory.

so, the "not stupid", "intelligent" "familiar with the outdoors" young woman who "valued her life" is the same one who ran away from college in February, sans appropriate winter clothing, and lied to excuse herself from her academic obligations.
intelligent people are not immune from lacking common sense or from getting into trouble with the law.
sorry, you can't convince this audience...try as you may...that MM was not acting on a plan, whether spontaneous or carefully crafted, to escape some dark situation in her personal life, as clearly evidenced by the emotions and behaviors she exhibited prior to her leaving Amherst; if, in fact, she ever made the trip to NH. i'll add she was not positively identified where her car was last found.
seems you've been sent to Topix via a successive line of quackers to promote positive attributes to MM which defy the choices she made in the time period during which she was last seen.
of course, you don't know her, haven't met her, and you're simply parroting what her family would like the public to believe.
perhaps Renner can and will uncover more fact-based information in researching the book he intends to write.

The discussion as to where RF saw a girl running on Rte. 112/116 has come up because of the location and the proximity to where “Matthew” from Lincoln NH, the hunter, found cloth and hair ensnared by duct tape in (most likely) November of 2009.

MM was a seasoned runner but nobody really thinks she ran from her crash site 5 miles eastward down Rte. 112 to Bowen Brook Rd. or area – do they? If you were getting away because you were trying to avoid a DUI charge, you’d hang out in the brush and make your way back to Woodsville -- stop at SSS and get some breath mints and call a cab from the landline.

Some media outlets have reported that RF saw a girl, who he later identified as MM, running on Rte. 112 (east of where 116 heads southwest – Coventry Road) others say RF spotted MM just off on a side road. If… say, the side road was Bowen Brook Rd. then the hunter’s lay-by parking area is 2.4 miles east of there along 112.

More likely, she was 5 miles down that road because she was able to escape from her abductor’s vehicle temporarily -- perhaps when they were on Coventry Road preparing to slow for the corner and stop sign at 112. That would be consistent with a route that the abductor would have taken if the Red Truck sighting on Bradley Hill Road is correct. Faced with a split second, run-for-your-life decision what would do? Which way would you head?

There is a house half a mile back on Coventry Road, but it’s hidden away. The river is on the south side @ Coventry/112 and there’s guardrail and probably a snow bank at that time from the road plowing. So… you’d probably head east on the north side of 112… keep going… hope against hope for a house or a passerby. You’d cross the road in an attempt to thwart him following you in his car and running you down. If your abductor is on foot and hot on your heels and closer to 112 than you are then it makes it too dangerous to flag down a passing car… maybe it’s the only car for quite a while.

On May 8, 2004 six teams with search dogs and 15 NHF&G combed the area of RF’s siting -- six ways to Sunday. Probably the backpack was left in the abductor’s truck so most likely there are no clues left there.

For those of us who carry dog bickies around in the glove compartment in case we see a stray dog… it seems unfathomable that someone sees a girl running (most likely for her life) in a desolate area and doesn’t stop or call police later. It happens though to the best of us… you think about it, then you get home – unload your car, you’re completely exhausted and poof it’s out of you mind until you watch the news or listen to the radio a week or so later.

Frostman and/or jwb,

A question for the locals here:

Having "driven" parts of Rtes 112 and 116 by way of Google Maps in the area of interest, I spotted what looks like a fairly big house at the very corner of the easterly 112/116 intersection.

Was this house there in February 2004 and, if so, is this a permanent residence or just a secondary one?
If Maura was in fact running in that area as possibly indicated by witness RF (The construction worker), either trying to flee an abductor or for some other reason, would she perhaps have been able to seek refuge in this house - or not?

Just wondering...

Snowy wrote:

<quoted text>
psychic-babble-rewind by undercover ducks.

Snowy, I truly understand your disdain for unconventional sleuthing methods that are outside the bounds of normal sensory channels and beyond the ken of most mere mortals. Absolutely… I’m with you completely – show me the science any day of the week. As for “psychic-babble”, I agree -- it’s right up there along with “baffle them with BS” and “bluster and fluster”.

If NH LE applied for a court order to find out who called MM the afternoon of February 9th then the number and the caller are proving difficult to track down. Maybe it’s all they have to go on. Someone who is in the communications field might be able to comment why it might be a daunting task and who is able to obtain those phantom, unregistered, unknown phone numbers. Are they possibly foreign, government or just untraceable calling cards?

I believe a knowledgeable poster stated that the “Londonderry ping”(as JR calls it) would not be unfathomable if MM was travelling on I-91 given that certain towers are dedicated to certain mobile providers. We were visiting in VT in 2003 and received an incoming call from California. When the bill came it showed a $20 surcharge from a local mobile provider for a tower charge 100 miles away from where we were staying.(Suffice it to say we were not amused!)

Frostman wrote:

The discussion as to where RF saw a girl running on Rte. 112/116 has come up because of the location and the proximity to where “Matthew” from Lincoln NH, the hunter, found cloth and hair ensnared by duct tape in (most likely) November of 2009.
MM was a seasoned runner but nobody really thinks she ran from her crash site 5 miles eastward down Rte. 112 to Bowen Brook Rd. or area – do they? If you were getting away because you were trying to avoid a DUI charge, you’d hang out in the brush and make your way back to Woodsville -- stop at SSS and get some breath mints and call a cab from the landline.
Some media outlets have reported that RF saw a girl, who he later identified as MM, running on Rte. 112 (east of where 116 heads southwest – Coventry Road) others say RF spotted MM just off on a side road. If… say, the side road was Bowen Brook Rd. then the hunter’s lay-by parking area is 2.4 miles east of there along 112.
More likely, she was 5 miles down that road because she was able to escape from her abductor’s vehicle temporarily -- perhaps when they were on Coventry Road preparing to slow for the corner and stop sign at 112. That would be consistent with a route that the abductor would have taken if the Red Truck sighting on Bradley Hill Road is correct. Faced with a split second, run-for-your-life decision what would do? Which way would you head?
There is a house half a mile back on Coventry Road, but it’s hidden away. The river is on the south side @ Coventry/112 and there’s guardrail and probably a snow bank at that time from the road plowing. So… you’d probably head east on the north side of 112… keep going… hope against hope for a house or a passerby. You’d cross the road in an attempt to thwart him following you in his car and running you down. If your abductor is on foot and hot on your heels and closer to 112 than you are then it makes it too dangerous to flag down a passing car… maybe it’s the only car for quite a while.
On May 8, 2004 six teams with search dogs and 15 NHF&G combed the area of RF’s siting -- six ways to Sunday. Probably the backpack was left in the abductor’s truck so most likely there are no clues left there.
For those of us who carry dog bickies around in the glove compartment in case we see a stray dog… it seems unfathomable that someone sees a girl running (most likely for her life) in a desolate area and doesn’t stop or call police later. It happens though to the best of us… you think about it, then you get home – unload your car, you’re completely exhausted and poof it’s out of you mind until you watch the news or listen to the radio a week or so later.

overactive imagination.
BS

Frostman wrote:

<quoted text>
Snowy, I truly understand your disdain for unconventional sleuthing methods that are outside the bounds of normal sensory channels and beyond the ken of most mere mortals. Absolutely… I’m with you completely – show me the science any day of the week. As for “psychic-babble”, I agree -- it’s right up there along with “baffle them with BS” and “bluster and fluster”.
If NH LE applied for a court order to find out who called MM the afternoon of February 9th then the number and the caller are proving difficult to track down. Maybe it’s all they have to go on. Someone who is in the communications field might be able to comment why it might be a daunting task and who is able to obtain those phantom, unregistered, unknown phone numbers. Are they possibly foreign, government or just untraceable calling cards?
I believe a knowledgeable poster stated that the “Londonderry ping”(as JR calls it) would not be unfathomable if MM was travelling on I-91 given that certain towers are dedicated to certain mobile providers. We were visiting in VT in 2003 and received an incoming call from California. When the bill came it showed a $20 surcharge from a local mobile provider for a tower charge 100 miles away from where we were staying.(Suffice it to say we were not amused!)

are we really, REALLY going back to the ping?! lol
round and round and round they go.....
a telecom engineer offered wise counsel on behalf of a longtime poster here.
i suspect you know that....you've just registered a name, but have lots of integrated background info to bore us with redundant speculation.
it's time-consuming to address non-fact after non-fact; fictional imaginings.
i leave that to WTH and Wowzer.
sorry to be so curt...actually, i'm not. even at Christmastime.
any piece of new information should be forwarded to LE in NH where the cold case resides. the rest is just gibberish.

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
Again. Please research instead of just writing the first thing that pops into your head. It was February. There had been many thaw/freeze cycles. There wasn't powder snow, especially near the road. It was mostly hard pack. Ever try to track someone over hard pack? I have. Its just slightly easier than tracking someone over Canadian shield rock.
She knew that someone was going to call the police. SBD said as much when he knew her story was bullsxxt. Who wouldn't think that an accident would draw police? I know all the inebriated people I saw run from accidents. They all knew the police would show up. I don't think Maura was retarded. She knew police would show up. I think she was scared, so she ran.
Again, with the invisible traveling companion.
Bill

Bill,
Road conditions that evening have been described in varying ways...from hard-packed snow/ice to snowy. Photos show snowbanks, several reports mention Maura's car hitting a snowbank. There was snow, enough snow that even if it had a crust, for plunge marks/holes to have been made had Maura stepped off the highway. That night no one saw any tracks/footprints heading out anywhere. This makes your description regarding road condition, "mostly hard pack" is likely the reason as to why no tracks/footprints were seen on the highway, leading away from the accident site. She stayed on the highway because much easier walking, could make better time, won't become lost. And according to detective Columbo, Maura's car DID have a flat tire. Maura locked her car and headed down the highway on foot. Hard pack on highway would have made tracks difficult (most likely impossible to see). Crust on snow in woods would have been a different situation. After awhile, especially if there are a couple layers of crust it will cause skin on lower legs/ankles to sometimes bleed, especially if not wearing appropriate socks, footwear, etc. This I know. Maura was not dressed for hiking through the woods, especially especially for the snow condition you describe. Also, one tires more easily with each step plunging through 2 ft of crusted snow, over fallen tree limbs, rough terrain. If attempting to avoid someone, prevent them from tracking me, I would choose hard-packed snow/ice and NOT 2 ft. of crusted snow any day. In any event, punch holes would have appeared in those snowbanks had she decided to trot off into the woods for an evening game of hide and seek.

Frost man wrote,
On May 8, 2004 six teams with search dogs and 15 NHF&G combed the area of RF’s siting -- six ways to Sunday. Probably the backpack was left in the abductor’s truck so most likely there are no clues left there.
For those of us who carry dog bickies around in the glove compartment in case we see a stray dog… it seems unfathomable that someone sees a girl running (most likely for her life) in a desolate area and doesn’t stop or call police later. It happens though to the best of us… you think about it, then you get home – unload your car, you’re completely exhausted and poof it’s out of you mind until you watch the news or listen to the radio a week or so later.

Frostman,
Bill believes you have an overactive imagination? You're make good points. The only thing I question is why the person in the situation you describe wouldn't have had some curiosity as to why all of those people (searchers) were on the highway and wandering around the woods the following Wednesday (after Maura's disappearance)? Maybe, like Bill, he simply they were ALL intoxicated and attempting to avoid a DUI/DWI. Not that this doesn't happen (people DO attempt to avoid LE). However, a young woman, not dressed appropriately for hide and seek in a snowy forest on a winter's evening after dark will not do this.

Shortly after that first call to Haverhill PD, someone in addition to the Haverhill police officer was alerted and headed toward the accident scene. Maura had made it some distance down the highway most likely carefully jogging along on hard packed snow. She was well out of sight of houses when a vehicle passed her but then stopped just ahead down the highway. As she approached this vehicle, a few words were exchanged with the driver. Whether she knew this driver, did not know this driver it did not matter....for some reason she felt safe. Although Maura had rejected offer of assistance from SBD and had not not knocked on doors of nearby houses, there was something about this driver that made her believe she was safe. She readily climbed inside his vehicle. No fear, no mistrust. Why?

jwb wrote:

<quoted text>
And don't forget the mentioning of the word local or mentioning a locals name . That brings out the whole group. They are the innocent they say. What makes them so sure that a local didn't grab her? Are you saying that all the locals in that area are perfect angels? It is not like rt 112 in Swiftwater on a monday night in Feb is a major destination point for out of towners. Yea, I know no proof of a crime at the car but it doesn't mean that a crime wasn't committed along the way..

jwb,
Then their was speculation the Saturn had slid off the same highway earlier that night, but as an officer(?) approached the scene, the car freed itself from being stuck and took off into the darkness. Whether this is true or not, whether this may have been Maura, it's difficult to determine. Some posts had indicated there had been lack of documentation by the officer (most likely because the car was leaving the scene!). Who knows if this is true?! Of course it was a busy evening according to some posters. Cars flying off the highway everywhere???????

Correction: "there" as opposed to their. Sorry...

According to Mr. Renner's research, he's been told by the police that all the liquor Maura brought with her is accounted for, it was all left in the car. Due to previous misinformation,i.e., that only the wine was left in the car, assumption was that the rest of the alcohol bottles were in her backpack.

So now I wonder what WAS in her backpack She withdrew cash, so she had some spending money. She may have had more cash from whatever source (saved previously, etc.). Maybe she made a stop and bought some boots and put them in the backpack or in the trunk. Maybe she had some winter clothing in the backpack or the trunk.(Note: a witness saw the trunk light going off and on, indicative that someone was doing something there). Maybe she went some ways down the road and changed to the warmer clothing.

Something was in the backpack ... what?

just me wrote:

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~janl /uvwrt/training/presentations/ NEK9_sar_dog_presentation_lyon s.pdf
Thought this was intersting after thinking about Maura's first moves away from the car. Like what was she thinking, where might she dash off to in order to escape detection from police and people. Even the idea that she went running as far as the area in Franconia...and that Nancy's dog, quickly, lost Maura's scent further down the road.
The above shows some of Nancy's accomplishments, her dog and seems to be a good overview,
Food for thought.

When was her dog involved, the first I heard of a dog was 2 days later and it was a air scent dog not a ground scent dog. Also what time of day, air scents rise in the morning hours and pool out to ground level in the afternoon hours. The fact the dog lost her scent doesn't mean she got in a vehicle. The woman who died ( I hope those of you who don't think this is a real condition are sitting down ) of HYPOTHERMIA, yes HYPOTHERMIA, on the Maine turnpike a couple years ago was tracked by a dog to the other side of the highway and the dog lost her scent. She was found dead off the highway back down the road from her vehicle so she crossed the highway again back to the side her car was on. Her vehicle was found with the door open and at the time it was thought she either took a ride or was abducted.

Dogs have done amazing feats with tracking, but for every success story there as failures also. Poor conditions, scent trail has diminished or is tainted. Dog is thinking of the bitch in heat next door and not the job he's on, yeah I know typical male.

Frostman wrote:

The discussion as to where RF saw a girl running on Rte. 112/116 has come up because of the location and the proximity to where “Matthew” from Lincoln NH, the hunter, found cloth and hair ensnared by duct tape in (most likely) November of 2009....Some media outlets have reported that RF saw a girl, who he later identified as MM .... For those of us who carry dog bickies around in the glove compartment in case we see a stray dog… it seems unfathomable that someone sees a girl running (most likely for her life) in a desolate area and doesn’t stop or call police later.

Fail. RF did NOT say he saw a "girl" running. He said he saw a young person. RF never identified this person as MM. And IIRC, he did not say the person was running -- he said the person moved off the road or turned down a side road as he was approaching. The time was only about 8 PM, not terribly late and people are known to take walks even in cold weather (RobinsonOrdway walked to the Stage Stop), walk to or from a friend's home, etc. RF had no reason to stop.

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
Just to make sure. You think, a killer, either waiting there, or just by chance, dressed in a LE or military uniform? or just with that type of knowledge. Compared to say, her just running away to avoid a drunk driving charge. In particular when there is no evidence of a struggle. No one who was watching the area heard anything or saw anything out of the ordinary.
So you hear unicorns approaching?
Occam would be proud.
Bill

Bill,
Unicorns approaching? They were always there, horns pointed upward to defend, protect their fallen from grace rider. Where is your imagination, Bill? Who in his or her right mind would dare to say anything? Remember "hear no evil, see no evil?" Bill, rest assured...the true unicorns have never left, they've remained loyal, unfortunately.

Beagle wrote:
"How many untrained male observers would be able to say what the last stranger they talked to in the dark for under a minute was wearing?"

Beagle,
Over the years, a lot of women have told me that their husbands have great difficulty finding peanut butter in the refrigerator. Now you have me wondering if these fellows were trained or untrained.

Advocate wrote:

According to Mr. Renner's research, he's been told by the police that all the liquor Maura brought with her is accounted for, it was all left in the car. Due to previous misinformation,i.e., that only the wine was left in the car, assumption was that the rest of the alcohol bottles were in her backpack.
So now I wonder what WAS in her backpack She withdrew cash, so she had some spending money. She may have had more cash from whatever source (saved previously, etc.). Maybe she made a stop and bought some boots and put them in the backpack or in the trunk. Maybe she had some winter clothing in the backpack or the trunk.(Note: a witness saw the trunk light going off and on, indicative that someone was doing something there). Maybe she went some ways down the road and changed to the warmer clothing.
Something was in the backpack ... what?

Yes, I can see her now, in the liquor store. She was thinking, "Oh, yeah...must save some of this money to buy boots and winter clothing so once I'm real drunk I'll be able to slip into the forest to avoid any members of LE who might be lurking around." Maybe if intoxicated as some prefer to believe, she stripped down right there on the highway and changed into winter wear. Winter wear? Maybe even riding gear and rode off on one of Bill's legendary unicorns.