Maura Murray

Bumping for Maura wrote:

<quoted text>
Frostman,
Just an observation. You´re writing about a "tar" lake here, which could of course also refer to Lake Tarleton, not too far south (as the crow flies) from the WB curve on Rte 112 in Swiftwater.
Just a thought.

And a Tarot reader years ago said I would have fortune and health, I'm broke and hurting. I take psychics with a grain of salt, wait no a BIG LUMP of salt. While some on TV seem to have solved cases, these are few and far between and we don't get to see ALL the failures these same psychics have had. Also made for TV doesn't always stay with the true facts, sensationalism equals viewers.

What would prevent a psychics from looking at a map, topo or other and make a guess. Many missing people that are victims of homicide are found in water. Many of these people operate on a system of statistics.

Frostman wrote:

The sterling information is out there in the cyber stratosphere and any poster is free to interpret or misinterpret that possible connection. Forest management. Proximity to Montgomery and NH Rte 112. Maybe missing time on the docket. A running/triathlon connection. Psychics who perceive than two women were killed by one person. Another intuitive who sees MM buried in a "tar" lake. Granite.
I'm just a realistic fiction writer with an overactive imagination.(You're right Snowy -- guilty as charged.)
But I've always wondered if Red Cross administration would call someone at 7AM? What is the cell phone coverage like in Craftsbury? And kidnapping across state lines would be cause to bring in the FBI.

Frosty,
Renner, perhaps? that was my guess a few days ago.
no matter...i appreciate and will continue to enjoy the calming influence of refined writing.

Snowy wrote:

<quoted text>
there is no evidence to affirm, in the public view, abduction or homicide.

Exactly, all we have is a missing person with ZERO evidence of ANY crime to our knowledge. Looking at the facts hypothermia is the most logical at this point Mr. Atwood described her as " cold and shivering " and IF that was Maura miles down the road its becomes obvious she also exerted herself, and we have to assume she had alcohol in her system which only compounds the potential for hypothermia. She was already at risk at the scene of the accident from what Mr. Atwood described.

Hypothermia is nasty and many victims don't even realize the symptoms and Maura likely didn't have the proper training or material to deal with it. Add in the adrenaline, the emotions, and confusion and the most danger she was in was due to her own actions.

Sure anything is possible, victim of a crime,or ran away, but when we look at the ONLY facts we are aware of, she was cold and shivering and is missing.

NHwoodsman52 wrote:

<quoted text>
And a Tarot reader years ago said I would have fortune and health, I'm broke and hurting. I take psychics with a grain of salt, wait no a BIG LUMP of salt. While some on TV seem to have solved cases, these are few and far between and we don't get to see ALL the failures these same psychics have had. Also made for TV doesn't always stay with the true facts, sensationalism equals viewers.
What would prevent a psychics from looking at a map, topo or other and make a guess. Many missing people that are victims of homicide are found in water. Many of these people operate on a system of statistics.

absolutely! a few of us here are not fans of psychics...generally the folks that are more grounded in reality.
i'm truly sorry for your circumstances; these have been tough times without relief. stay hopeful. nothing remains static forever. all the best in the New Year.

NHwoodsman52 wrote:

<quoted text>
Exactly, all we have is a missing person with ZERO evidence of ANY crime to our knowledge. Looking at the facts hypothermia is the most logical at this point Mr. Atwood described her as " cold and shivering " and IF that was Maura miles down the road its becomes obvious she also exerted herself, and we have to assume she had alcohol in her system which only compounds the potential for hypothermia. She was already at risk at the scene of the accident from what Mr. Atwood described.
Hypothermia is nasty and many victims don't even realize the symptoms and Maura likely didn't have the proper training or material to deal with it. Add in the adrenaline, the emotions, and confusion and the most danger she was in was due to her own actions.
Sure anything is possible, victim of a crime,or ran away, but when we look at the ONLY facts we are aware of, she was cold and shivering and is missing.

i cannot disagree, for once.
someone recently made it clear to me that if a person has succumbed to the elements, it doesn't take too long for the scavengers of the wild to alter and remove any trace. this, of course, is something you've asserted all along, and explains how any evidence of a body in and around that location would not be easily found over all of these years.
i'm not an outdoors woman, so it's taken awhile to fully appreciate this reality.
thank you for this post.

NHwoodsman52 wrote:

<quoted text>
Columbo, I see no relation between Brianna Maitland and Maura. From reports Brianna ran with some seedy people and there were rumors she owed money. I think there were also indications of a struggle at the scene as some of her personal effects were found outside the car. Brianna had also been assaulted by another girl days or a few weeks before her disappearance. Someone could have been put up to Brianna's disappearing.
Brianna was also known to pick up hitchhikers, though I have a feeling her abductor was known to her. I feel she didn't leave on her own as she left paychecks, contacts, and headache medication behind.
Her accident scene was odd and may have been staged. Sadly the Vermont trooper that first arrived dropped the ball on this one. The report as I remember was days late and the parents were not notified for days and if I remember right they didn't even initially hear it days after from LE!
Whats your opinion on any relationship as this has been debated off and on on the forum.

Although there are some basic similarities I have found NO CONNECTION between Maura and Brianna.

BUT....Molly and Holly were killed by the same person.

Snowy wrote:

<quoted text>
there is no evidence to affirm, in the public view, abduction or homicide.

Absolutely true.

Aftermath, I for one am willing to consider foul play if there is any evidence - ANY - or at least strong indication of it. If you could please provide ANYTHING pointing to foul play as what happened to Maura I, and I would guess others, would be willing to reconsider your credibility completely. I would even personally apologize to you. But it´s gotta be better than hair color or foul play happened to X and Y, therefor foul play happened to Maura.

Wowzer the real one wrote:

<quoted text>
.....and all you want to talk about is a car going off the road and a discrepancy in time with the very person making these statements""

Oh, and by the way, the discrepancy in time that I mention is a discrepancy that has been in place since the beginning. It isn't Aftermath's discrepancy.....it's in line with a theory. Read the Whitman-Hanson article.
So, your saying that "all I want to talk about" with the very person making these statements is off track.....this isn't Aftermath's time discrepancy. I'm amazed -- it's the first time in about 4-5 years that I've heard ANYONE mention it....a big diversion from the sarcastic, caustic banter that's normally on here.

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
Blaming the victim. I like that. It sounds terrible, doesn't it. We use to call it taking individual responsibility. I wonder. If Maura had just stood by her car. Waiting for the police to arrive, instead of running from the scene. Would we be doing any of this? Makes you kind of wonder, when people take actions of their own volition. Against what is dictated by convention. And then others that like to blame, police, people in the area, etc.
Bill

just telling someone where you're going is a starting place and a sensible safeguard at any age. it's odd that NO ONE in her life, by the claims of family and friends, had a clue to the cause of her apparent distress before leaving Amherst.
i will always feel badly for the folks in the area where her car was found. by all accounts, good people have unfairly suffered innuendo, suspicion and blame without earning it.
the sooner she's found, the better.

hannah_b wrote:

<quoted text>
Absolutely true.
Aftermath, I for one am willing to consider foul play if there is any evidence - ANY - or at least strong indication of it. If you could please provide ANYTHING pointing to foul play as what happened to Maura I, and I would guess others, would be willing to reconsider your credibility completely. I would even personally apologize to you. But it´s gotta be better than hair color or foul play happened to X and Y, therefor foul play happened to Maura.

Everything should be on the table including foul play. Just because there is no evidence at the scene it doesn't mean that as she began her walk that something didn't happen. I just don't think it is possible to speak of much about this case in a matter of fact way except about the few facts that are known.All else is speculation and it is ok to speculate, but it should be stated as speculation and not fact.

Snowy,

I am patently aware that Renner wrote that LE relayed to him that the Red Cross individual had been identified and had made a call to BR's cell. That is what someone wrote in a blog. What is FACT is that there was a court decision that ruled that LE was not required to divulge anything to the public in this ongoing investigation.

If that 7AM call had been, say, triangulated to a cell tower in New England there is no legal onus on LE to divulge that to Renner. I have no issue with LE and I truly believe that they are doing all they can and would love to get this resolved.

OI vey, I had a dream that the culprits were a pack of hungry wolves and woke up to our collie mix licking my face!

Frostman wrote:

Snowy,
I am patently aware that Renner wrote that LE relayed to him that the Red Cross individual had been identified and had made a call to BR's cell. That is what someone wrote in a blog. What is FACT is that there was a court decision that ruled that LE was not required to divulge anything to the public in this ongoing investigation.
If that 7AM call had been, say, triangulated to a cell tower in New England there is no legal onus on LE to divulge that to Renner. I have no issue with LE and I truly believe that they are doing all they can and would love to get this resolved.
OI vey, I had a dream that the culprits were a pack of hungry wolves and woke up to our collie mix licking my face!

"If that 7AM call had been, say, triangulated to a cell tower in New England there is no legal onus on LE to divulge that to Renner. I have no issue with LE and I truly believe that they are doing all they can and would love to get this resolved."

i am in favor of keeping the official investigation intact, so i wasn't surprised LE disallowed access to Renner's request for info. ideally, i place trust in LE, but also hope it's not misplaced. from the viewpoint of one's own family member, however, it's not hard to see how frustration could quickly alter the relationship between family and LE. criticizing and antagonizing LE is, of course, a surefire way to lose their cooperation.

we have two border collie mixes. love, love, love.

I guess the “evidence” at the scene, apart from the car, is that trained SAR dogs (Scarzini stated it was a bloodhound) lost MM’s scent 100-200 feet down the road. The dogs are certified and by all accounts the weather was clear. It’s been reported that there was no precipitation for two days after the disappearance. Historical temperatures and precipitation for February 9, 2004 are available on-line.

A “reasonable man” theory is that MM vanished in a vehicle. If she succumbed to the elements, it would appear that it was not as a result of directly walking away from the crash site near WB.

A trained SAR dog handler could better elaborate regarding the statistical accuracy of the canine units. I wouldn’t have a clue; our pound puppy is only interested in sheep and squirrels!

NHwoodsman52 wrote:
Columbo, I see no relation between Brianna Maitland and Maura. From reports Brianna ran with some seedy people and there were rumors she owed money. I think there were also indications of a struggle at the scene as some of her personal effects were found outside the car. Brianna had also been assaulted by another girl days or a few weeks before her disappearance. Someone could have been put up to Brianna's disappearing.
Brianna was also known to pick up hitchhikers, though I have a feeling her abductor was known to her. I feel she didn't leave on her own as she left paychecks, contacts, and headache medication behind."

NHwoodsman52,
I could not agree with you more. Initially, I thought for sure that a connection existed. While still not totally sure, my belief is that based on what Brianna's mother said about Brianna having left a store while they were shopping as though she had seen someone outside has provided more info. Her mother said whatever had taken place outside, she noted a change in Brianna after that incident. That someone may have hit Brianna up for money and Brianna had responded by saying, "I don't have money now but I'm being paid today and can give you some money tomorrow." Possibly this person decided he wanted more than $15 or $20, thought he wanted the entire amount of her paycheck. Figuring she may have cashed her check that day...he waited in the back seat of her car, when they approached the abandoned property told her to back into the driveway and when she did began to strangling her from behind. Automatic reflex would cause the person, attempting to be freed from a strangle hold would be to extend one's body. She either pressed the accelerator unintentionally or intentionally in attempt to free herself. He'd left his vehicle in back of the farm house earlier that day and had walked to the restaurant. He must have either had a vehicle on the property or someone was following in another vehicle because Brianna's body was never found on the property.

Had someone assumed that she would be receiving and CASHING her check that day, he must have been very disappointed when he placed himself in a position where he had made the decision to murder someone for her paycheck....and then arrive at the realization she had no cash on her and instead two paychecks. He may have even been a bit angry because she had two paychecks that she had not bothered to cash that day. Think some scumbag, an acquaintance, murdered her for her money but discovered she had no cash on her. Talk about low-life scumbag. ...and chances are he is too ignorant to recognize anything wrong with what he has done.

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
Blaming the victim. I like that. It sounds terrible, doesn't it. We use to call it taking individual responsibility. I wonder. If Maura had just stood by her car. Waiting for the police to arrive, instead of running from the scene. Would we be doing any of this? Makes you kind of wonder, when people take actions of their own volition. Against what is dictated by convention. And then others that like to blame, police, people in the area, etc.
Bill

Bill,
Responsibility? Consider that you may need to visit and take advantage of your own advice. Possibly if you, et al had not been brushing away every disappearance and murder away as an automatic drunken, runaway suicidal individual gone wild situation, these incidents of missing and murder people might have been taken more seriously. Some may not even have occurred if you, et al could take a deep breath and come down from your patriarchal high horse for even a few weeks. Some tragedies may have even been avoided. Why? Because a serial killer may have taken full advantage of attitudes such as yours, et al. A killer is likely saying to himself, "Hell, I can just keep right on doin' what I been doin' and people like Bill, et al, will just chalk up another disappearance or murder to their drunken, runaway, suicidal young person theory. Given the backdrop of the number of missing and dumped bodies, especially females last seen alone (many with abandoned cars), some on foot.... maybe every abandoned vehicle ESPECIALLY WITH OUT-OF-STATE LICENSE PLATES needs to be treated a bit differently. Even if some serious consideration were given to these types of vehicle abandonment....it would at least be a start in the right direction.

Our tax dollars at work:

https://tips.fbi.gov/

Wowzer the real one wrote:

<quoted text>
How very odd. If I remember correctly you were one of the small group that ran the first MMforum from he*l and I think your hubby had something to do with LE. Here's a poster that saying some very strange and disturbing things ***No one will search the Fairlee area or so it seems. It would be quite a task, that's for sure. Possibly, someone will accidentally trip over some of the bodies; usually fishermen, some unsuspecting individual walks onto the scene.*** and all you want to talk about is a car going off the road and a discrepancy in time with the very person making these statements. This leads me to think that :
1 You know the poster and know they are making this crap up
2 You don't give a rats ass about finding Maura
3 It's one of the group
Mcsmom has no trouble arguing with me about the position of a road but has nothing to ask or say to someone that's been making such incriminating statements concerning bodies, areas where they can be found etc.etc.
Beyond strange.

Bill,
Maybe mcsmom knows that oft times trolls trudge quietly around in the woodland making observations that others might never believe.

aftermath wrote:

<quoted text>
Bill,
Responsibility? Consider that you may need to visit and take advantage of your own advice. Possibly if you, et al had not been brushing away every disappearance and murder away as an automatic drunken, runaway suicidal individual gone wild situation, these incidents of missing and murder people might have been taken more seriously. Some may not even have occurred if you, et al could take a deep breath and come down from your patriarchal high horse for even a few weeks. Some tragedies may have even been avoided. Why? Because a serial killer may have taken full advantage of attitudes such as yours, et al. A killer is likely saying to himself, "Hell, I can just keep right on doin' what I been doin' and people like Bill, et al, will just chalk up another disappearance or murder to their drunken, runaway, suicidal young person theory. Given the backdrop of the number of missing and dumped bodies, especially females last seen alone (many with abandoned cars), some on foot.... maybe every abandoned vehicle ESPECIALLY WITH OUT-OF-STATE LICENSE PLATES needs to be treated a bit differently. Even if some serious consideration were given to these types of vehicle abandonment....it would at least be a start in the right direction.

you are reaching...to the point of near hysteria. "attitudes" do not influence serial killers. they are socio/psychopaths driven by internal rage and pathologies.
and you're not whipping up any particular agreement by your speculation.

a bona fide lawyer here once very patiently gave EWB the benefit of the doubt....examining each and every one of her adamant claims about the involvement of a serial killer; he was able to theoretically rule out those possibilities. you know that, of course, because you were here.

as they say...pfftt. as they also say, you're beating a dead horse.

It seems many people keep going back to the scene of the accident. Why? Because it is where Maura was reported to have been last seen. Last place where she was reported to be a live, intact, shivering, cold...but alive. Everyone talks about evidence. What very little existed; may have been some, very little but it was somehow compromised or so it seems at this point. Leads? Exhausted.