Maura Murray

Beagle wrote:

And where does Hampshire Shakespeare perform? Bay Road?
Remember the Shakespeare quote from Oh My?

So Beagle... your death in 1967 was not in vain. Apparently you were reincarnated, did the Doogie Howser fast-track thing and graduated from Weymouth North High School in 1975. Well done!

Advocate wrote:

<quoted text> Enough snow to make cross-country travel with inadequate footgear difficult re frequent slips/trips.

ANY snow makes foot travel difficult in those woods unless you're on the trails......But definitely not 2 feet deep....

Frostman wrote:

<quoted text>
The link was interesting and IMO, pro LE. When I cite some history on the forums and seek clarification you say, "oopsie, before my time".
Some of us understand your posts regarding the CTRV killer and victimology. We get it. Completely. Some of us also understand who is former LE and who are impostors.
Video et taceo.

not to beat a horse beyond recognition, but i was responding to the negative stereotyping of LE. the profile may be accurate in some respects, but overall, doesn't account for individual differences. positive differences.

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
I understand a lot of what he has said and how he said it. In many cases I have said the same things in some cases virtually verbatim. I have a particularly low threshold for "stupid" and these forums through the years have produced more than their fair share of stupid.
It is nice that someone else is doing some of the heavy lifting, and he is doing a remarkably good job of it. He has his facts straight, now how to investigate not speculate. And can put thoughts together logically and express himself very well. People should be listening, instead they want to argue.
Oh, and I have never heard anyone state that Maura left in a car. I have heard repeated speculation, including from me that, that is a possibility based upon the way the dog appeared to act. I have never read any official who has stated that as fact. Ever!
Bill

it is refreshing to have someone else doing the heavy lifting.
AMEN

Frostman wrote:

<quoted text>
Agreed aftermath. It was an eloquently written postulation, but there are no facts to back up the theories put forward by HNwoodshome. Most of us, though, could learn something about his well constructed posts, myself included.
There WAS a starting point for the SAR dogs to pick up a scent (at the crash scene) and they did track that scent down 112 to BHR therefore leading LE to conclude she left in a vehicle. That's a well-known FACT, I believe.
If there was NO scent, a SAR dog might not go that far, they might arc out a bit and if they didn't hit on a scent then they might look to their handler for more guidance. But, only a professional SAR handler could properly comment on those probabilities.

I am open to other theories, I have stated previously anything is possible. I am just in my opinion basing it on what I feel may be most logical from the few facts available. I did state she may not have even concluded suicide but mother nature may have sealed her fate which has been my number one theory, hypothermia. This was about almost as perfect a hypothermia storm as you can get.

Highly likely she had consumed alcohol, IF that was Maura the contractor saw she exerted herself. To our knowledge she didn't have the items needed to prevent hypothermia and may not have even been aware she was in danger.

As I have stated in the past hypothermia is a nasty condition that catch's one off guard. Often hypothermia is mistaken as fatigue, and if hypothermia isn't addressed quickly it doesn't take long for one to enter a danger zone that can be almost impossible to recuperate from and death results.

The bigger problem with hypothermia is you lose your ability to function physically and mentally. One becomes delusional and then any ability to make sense of your situation and rectify it is gone.

I have had moderate hypothermia twice, once atop MT Washington and I recognized and had the right clothing and body warmers to address it. The second time I was not far from home stubbornly sitting on a deer stand and got out of the woods ASAP.

Maura's state of mind seems to be a subject of debate. A rational person doesn't take off a long distance obviously prepared for days or more in an ill running car and TELL NO ONE!

Heavy drinking is OFTEN a sign of depression or self medication to relieve stress. Alcohol only compounds the problem with depression. Maura had eating issues, as I had stated. Another sign of moderate to severe emotional issues. Maura had plenty of pressure in her life and I feel it came to a head and that was the reason for her hiatus.

I was in charge of LGT in the Air Force and had training on the signs of depression and possible suicidal tendencies. Suicide is not uncommon in the military and we did everything we could to try to prevent it.
I can tell you if Maura had been one of my Airmen, she would have been subjected to an eval and monitored closely. As much I would hate to do that to someone, I'd rather live with that decision then see them dead.

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
I understand a lot of what he has said and how he said it. In many cases I have said the same things in some cases virtually verbatim. I have a particularly low threshold for "stupid" and these forums through the years have produced more than their fair share of stupid.
It is nice that someone else is doing some of the heavy lifting, and he is doing a remarkably good job of it. He has his facts straight, now how to investigate not speculate. And can put thoughts together logically and express himself very well. People should be listening, instead they want to argue....

So badgering is acceptable by "LE" and "former LE" on this thread? And the rest of us should cower?

Wowzer - nice new duck. thanks for the smile.

Frostman wrote:

A lot of posters quoting out of "Psychiatry For Dummies" this morning without taking an accurate history of their "patient".
NH LE has stated that she left in a vehicle. Known, accredited LE have come forth with this on several occasions. So suicide? In the vehicle she left in?
Are you all on a day pass from the looney bin?

LE has ZERO proof she left in a vehicle, its speculation and they even stated they believe Forciers sighting of Maura some miles down the road was VALID!! It can't be both ways, they felt she may have left in a vehicle because the dog lost her scent. NO one saw her get in a vehicle nor did they hear a vehicle in the area the scent was lost.

The whole dog deal is also suspect, dogs aren't perfect, scent trail was old, air scent dog not a ground scent dog, the glove supplied for the scent may not have even been worn. Dogs lose scent trails frequently for a variety of reasons,

jwb wrote:

I found this web page helpful for trying to understand why there is such a big disconnect with some LE and other members of society. They list 10 traits. I posted # 8 along with the web page address:
http://www.heavybadge.com/10reason.htm
8) No gray areas. The law enforcement officer works in a fact-based world with everything compared to written law. Right and wrong is determined by a standard. They have a set way of going about gathering the proper evidence for the law and can justify their actions because they represent the "good and right side." In the real world, clear rights and wrongs are not as likely to occur. The newspapers are an opinion-based system, the court system is an opinion-based system and, needless to say, relationship decisions and proper parenting techniques are opinion-based systems. Adjusting from right and wrong, black-and-white systems, to opinion-based systems is very difficult and requires a complete change in mental attitude.

I have to take some exception, while I have seen this trait in Law Enforcement officers,I have seen it with many other professions as well. The thing is LE has to base a case in court on FACT! Due to this they tend to operate on fact, gray areas don't hold up in court and a grand jury usually won't indict based on hear say or gray area evidence. Do they think outside the box, sure but they have to dedicate their focus on what evidence they have and on past experience and statistics which bear out the highest percentage of likely hood.

Second I have found that usually the answer to many things is SIMPLE, sometimes answers are so simple they are easily overlooked, and some refuse to believe in the answer. Do LE's make mistakes, sure and I feel sometimes due to the daily onslaught of seeing mostly the bad of society its easy to get jaded.

Look at scientists, some of these people are the worse offenders of black and white syndrome. Just bring up the UFO topic in the scientific community and see what you get! Having been with Air Force Space Command most of my career, having been an adviser on battle staff and disaster preparedness for years and having one on one contact with those in the know I beg to differ with these scientists. The sheer definition of UFO is Unidentified Flying Object, it doesn't have to be from another planet, its just FREEKING UNIDENTIFIED!!! We all have our opinions and biases, its called being human and that's what makes us interesting, and annoying.

Snowy wrote:

<quoted text>
if one is motivated to take off into the woods, i'd suggest it is the terrain that makes navigating difficult to impossible....footwear is the lesser concern. uncleared brush and fallen trees aren't a clear path to anywhere.

Determined people especially those suffering from some form of dementia like hypothermia or intoxication are capable of astounding feats. How many times has a drunk or druggy been totally unfazed by a taser that should have dropped them, many have been shot multiple times and they just kept coming.

I once deer hunted with the village idiot ( not by choice ) in Derby Vermont, over a foot of snow and he wore sneakers and we covered some ground. He was a hurting unit after and couldn't feel his toes though I think the numbness actually started above his neck and worked its way down. Under normal circumstances I agree, a person wearing sneakers isn't going to relish the idea of walking in snow, but once again state of mind comes in play. We should not look at all of Maura's actions from a logical viewpoint.

looking4amoose wrote:

<quoted text>ANY snow makes foot travel difficult in those woods unless you're on the trails......But definitely not 2 feet deep....

Agree, looked like maybe a foot in open area's and heavily wooded area's would have less if not bare ground.

NHwoodshome wrote:

<quoted text>
I am open to other theories, I have stated previously anything is possible. I am just in my opinion basing it on what I feel may be most logical from the few facts available. I did state she may not have even concluded suicide but mother nature may have sealed her fate which has been my number one theory, hypothermia. This was about almost as perfect a hypothermia storm as you can get.
Highly likely she had consumed alcohol, IF that was Maura the contractor saw she exerted herself. To our knowledge she didn't have the items needed to prevent hypothermia and may not have even been aware she was in danger.
As I have stated in the past hypothermia is a nasty condition that catch's one off guard. Often hypothermia is mistaken as fatigue, and if hypothermia isn't addressed quickly it doesn't take long for one to enter a danger zone that can be almost impossible to recuperate from and death results.
The bigger problem with hypothermia is you lose your ability to function physically and mentally. One becomes delusional and then any ability to make sense of your situation and rectify it is gone.
I have had moderate hypothermia twice, once atop MT Washington and I recognized and had the right clothing and body warmers to address it. The second time I was not far from home stubbornly sitting on a deer stand and got out of the woods ASAP.

NHwoodshome,
Speaking of fatigue, it would seem that after a fairly stressful weekend taking a trip to VT or NH would not have been in the stars. Even though I believe she was abducted at the four corners, I'm willing to hypothesize about the chance of her sauntering off into a snow-covered woodland after dark. Personally, I do not believe she would have attempted to flee even if she had been drinking alcohol. Consider that she'd been at a late night/early morning party where alcohol had been served that weekend, had left early and was then involved in an accident with her father's Toyota. It takes little alcohol to fall into the range of receiving a DUI/DWI. If she had been the drink & flee kind of person, it would seem she would have bounded off into the darkness at the time of the Toyota accident. She had not. The Saturn had been full of gas? Nearly full? So she may have stopped for gas and used a restroom. Otherwise, had she driven all of those miles without heeding nature's call (had she been drinking the quantities of alcohol people seem to believe she had been drinking)it would seem reasonable that she might have walked off the highway to urinate. If she had been drinking, was cold, etc.....seems this would have been a possibility. Still no tracks heading into the woods near the Saturn...and according to the dog, Maura's scent stopped at the intersection. Even if she had stepped off the highway into the woods and became turned around, lost....she would hear traffic on highway. There would have been no reason that she would have had to walk a mile off the highway to urinate, especially in the dark.

Frostman wrote:

<quoted text>
So badgering is acceptable by "LE" and "former LE" on this thread? And the rest of us should cower?

Lets face it, all you are is upset that someone is giving you a heaping taste of you own medicine. You and the other bully's here don't like turn around by someone who can argue the facts and presents them in a way you can't dispute.

Personally, your point of view is rather absurd looking at it from the outsiders perspective. Anything could have happened to this girl, but frmrle and wth present valid points backed by experience and facts, not rumor and speculation. And you don't like it do you.

It's the same old story, confront a bunch of bully's with a bigger bully and they start to cry and whine like a bunch of school girls.

Butch up and make good points or shut up and stop the crying.

Thats just my opinion.

NHwoodshome wrote:

<quoted text>
Determined people especially those suffering from some form of dementia like hypothermia or intoxication are capable of astounding feats. How many times has a drunk or druggy been totally unfazed by a taser that should have dropped them, many have been shot multiple times and they just kept coming.
I once deer hunted with the village idiot ( not by choice ) in Derby Vermont, over a foot of snow and he wore sneakers and we covered some ground. He was a hurting unit after and couldn't feel his toes though I think the numbness actually started above his neck and worked its way down. Under normal circumstances I agree, a person wearing sneakers isn't going to relish the idea of walking in snow, but once again state of mind comes in play. We should not look at all of Maura's actions from a logical viewpoint.

NHwoodshome,
In addition to looking at the windshield damage, I had a couple of auto-body repair guys take a look at the windshield. Both told me that to them it looked like the driver had not been wearing a seatbelt. Let's say Maura's head had hit the windshield and that she had head injury. The possibility exists that when SBD stopped and spoke with her, she may not have been feeling the full effects of the aftermath of head injury. She might have started walking down the highway and let's say she made it far beyond the 4-corner intersection. If she did sustain tbi/head injury and began feeling confused, disoriented...she may have strayed off the highway in an area far from the scene of the accident.

Frostman wrote:

<quoted text>
Just ignore FrmLE -- let him stew in his juices. Not LE, not even close. And not even worth the keystrokes it takes to respond.

This is another way of saying, "I really can't argue because I have no expericne whatsoever, so I am going to pretend like it's not worth my effort...."

I have your number douche.

Det Columbo wrote:

The arrogance and rudeness that is spewed forth from the fingertips of FrmLE in his retirement from law enforcement makes Me happy he is no longer a cop.
FrmLE..... You must have been a real cactus as a cop. I am sure your curbside manner left a lot to be desired.
You sir are an ass to be polite. Did You leave of your own accord or were You tossed? Just Asking.!
John

This comes from someone claiming to be an ex-cop, but has demonstrated time and time again he has absolutely NO CLUE the first thing about a wilderness search and rescue or criminal investigations of any kind.

You sir, are a liar to be polite. You were never a cop, such a bunch of BS.

aftermath wrote:

<quoted text>
NHwoodshome,
In addition to looking at the windshield damage, I had a couple of auto-body repair guys take a look at the windshield.

Complete and utter Bull. You had NO ONE look at the windshield, lol, what a joke! How did you do this, just run up to Troop F, pop inside and ask 600, 601, or 602 for the keys and drove it to a 'few body repair guys'? Yeah that happened, what a crock.

Another Liar.

FrmLE,

Why on earth are you getting so worked up?
People are bound to have many different and differing ideas and theories, and we just don´t have enough facts to say with any kind of certainty what might have happened to Maura.
Bashing each other on the head is not going to be a productive way of achieving anything whatsoever, IMO, and that goes for both camps here.

WOW the freeking Gauntlet hit the floor tonight on several posts!!! Putting on my flak vest and helmet, digging a hole and bringing in the flatscreen for the Pats game.
See you all in the morning, hopefully celebrating a Patriots victory.