Maura Murray

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#11261
Feb 5, 2012
 
Beaglefukker wrote:
Whats your point retard? Seriously, can you make just a small attempt to make sense?
F-ing retard
Actually, this is one of the few times I get what he is saying. Lets see of those involved will respond. Very lucid examples.

Bill
Beagle

Amherst, MA

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#11262
Feb 5, 2012
 
Simply Caustic wrote:
Beagle:
The first post you made ALSO had this at the link you posted...
Grand juries composed of a single Superior Court judge were at one time relatively commonplace in Connecticut, especially in difficult cases or in investigations of suspected political corruption, but now are used much less frequently.
The second post you made is regarding violation of election laws. From that link:
Circuit Court, by affirmative majority decision of the bench, authorized issuance of an order to convene a one person grand jury for the purpose of conducting a judicial investigation as to the allegations contained in the complaint.
That's a judicial investigation, and it had to go through the Circuit Court. It's not a regular grand jury, nor a petit jury. It's a judicial investigation.
Regarding the Wisconsin link you cited - that's in John Doe cases...this isn't a John Doe case, and I cannot find any references to any recent Wisconsin one person grand juries whatsoever.
I would like to note that you haven't linked anything from the state of Mass.(I linked the current law in a previous post, about grand juries and their makeup).
Also - it states in the very link you provided that they are essentially used in political corruption cases - and now used much less frequently (and that's Connecticut).
I noticed you didn't refute my assertion that grand juries do, in fact, require a suspect in order to proceed - otherwise, who are they attempting to indict? You had stated earlier that they didn't need a POI.
Do you have any thoughts now, regarding the focus of the grand jury? A POI, or Maura, perhaps, herself? Just wondering what your thoughts are.
The cold case of the missing woman was not a judicial or political case. Neither were two more that I cited. However, a judge in at least two of them was the sole grand juror.

Correct, I haven't cited anything specific to MA. You're right that it's an unusual situation - I never disputed that - but it does exist, which was my point. Of course, the Beaglefukker retard comment from Toronto was a point also well made.

BTW, MA does limit the number of grand jurors to 23. But that's the limit. 23 is required by statue.
Simply Caustic

Homer Glen, IL

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#11263
Feb 5, 2012
 
Thank God I saved this link --

"...one-manned grand jury is not a grand jury in the common law sense. Principle differences between it and the common law grand jury are (1) investigation is performed by one judge, instead of 16 to 23 grand jurors (2) the judge issues NO INDICTMENT but offers a presentment of findings. The system has been particularly effective in dealing with corruption among public officials." --LAW REVIEW / CONSTITUTIONAL LAW

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1285097

Clearly, the one-man grand jury is used in political corruption cases, and even then, sparingly. I have access to all the legal databases and I can't find any current citations with the exception of Michigan and Connecticut, both of which are political corruption/electoral issues (although I do note the article you linked, I think that is the exception to the rule - and they stated as much IN the article.)

This is all besides the point, but I figure I'd finish what I began.

**Also, as I had stated, I'm employed and licensed in the state of Illinois, county of Cook, to be precise. While I don't have a background of Mass. law, I do have the resources to lookup these types of questions and come up with an answer. That was my only point in the 'I do this for a living' statement. I stand behind it - I wasn't trying to be rude.**
Consider this

Hingham, MA

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#11264
Feb 5, 2012
 
"In New Hampshire, a grand jury is composed of twelve to twenty-three citizens who consider accusations of crimes. If there is sufficient evidence, the grand jury may indict an individual suspected of committing a felony, when at least twelve grand jurors agree. The individual's case is tried before a jury.

The petit jury or trial jury resolves civil disputes and criminal matters. In criminal matters, the jury determines if the facts presented in a case prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant has committed a crime."

In civil cases, the jury determines if the facts presented establish a preponderance of evidence then the defendant is liable to the plaintiff. If so, the plaintiff receives damages. Regardless of the type of case, the petit jury verdict must be unanimous.
Beagle

Amherst, MA

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#11265
Feb 5, 2012
 
Sorry, above post should have read "23 is NOT required by statue." IOW, 23 is the limit, but fewer is okay. Some states do require 23. Many do not.

BELOW FROM: http://www.lawlib.state.ma.us/source/mass/rul...

As prescribed by law, the appropriate number of jurors shall be summoned in the manner and at the time required, from among whom the court shall select not more than twenty-three grand jurors to serve in said court
Simply Caustic

Homer Glen, IL

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#11266
Feb 5, 2012
 
Beagle wrote:
<quoted text>The cold case of the missing woman was not a judicial or political case. Neither were two more that I cited. However, a judge in at least two of them was the sole grand juror.
Correct, I haven't cited anything specific to MA. You're right that it's an unusual situation - I never disputed that - but it does exist, which was my point. Of course, the Beaglefukker retard comment from Toronto was a point also well made.
BTW, MA does limit the number of grand jurors to 23. But that's the limit. 23 is required by statue.
What do you mean the Beaglefucker retard comment was a point well made?!?!

Yes, 23 is required. I learned that when I linked it yesterday or the day before.
Simply Caustic

Homer Glen, IL

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#11267
Feb 5, 2012
 
Beagle wrote:
<quoted text>Sorry, but a grand jury can consist of only one juror, a judge. Not rare.
I hate to be a nitpicker, but you DID say it was 'not rare'. And...it is rare. Very.
Simply Caustic

Homer Glen, IL

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#11268
Feb 5, 2012
 
Simply Caustic wrote:
<quoted text>
What do you mean the Beaglefucker retard comment was a point well made?!?!
Yes, 23 is required. I learned that when I linked it yesterday or the day before.
Saw your link - I stand corrected, it does state that 23 is the maximum number. I'd have to track down the link I posted, but I'm fairly certain I just assumed (and one should never do that!) that the grand jury is 23 people as a standard - but it clearly states it's the max., not otherwise.
Beagle

Amherst, MA

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#11269
Feb 5, 2012
 
Simply Caustic wrote:
Beagle:
The first post you made ALSO had this at the link you posted...
Grand juries composed of a single Superior Court judge were at one time relatively commonplace in Connecticut, especially in difficult cases or in investigations of suspected political corruption, but now are used much less frequently.
Well, if they're used less frequently now, but were relatively common some time back, then I guess they're still used? They're just not relatively common any more.

But I agree, we're talking about 50 different states here and only one of them is relevant - NH. I don't have a theory about it, but I would agree with you that if a regular grand jury is convened, then prosecutors probably have someone in mind. I guess.

BTW, I was a little older than 6 when the Bears last won the Super Bowl. That's probably why the idea of a one-person grand jury, no longer so popular, stuck in my head.
Beagle

Amherst, MA

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#11270
Feb 5, 2012
 

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Simply Caustic wrote:
Do you have any thoughts now, regarding the focus of the grand jury? A POI, or Maura, perhaps, herself? Just wondering what your thoughts are.
No idea. Would a grand jury be convened if Maura was regarded by the police to have disappeared into the woods?
Simply Caustic

Homer Glen, IL

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#11271
Feb 5, 2012
 

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I can argue the semantics of legalese all night long - but the relevance of this particular line of conversation is the grand jury that was convened in regards to the disappearance of Maura.

Most assuredly, it was not a one-man jury - judge or otherwise. Agreed?

This would leave it as a (roughly, approximately, etc.) 23 person GJ convened to either render a true bill of indictment OR no bill - the question is, who was the focus of the grand jury?

I hope you all have some interesting ideas about this, because I really can't fathom anyone other than some random POI (which would shock the living hell out of me, honestly, as I don't think anything so far points to that)...or to Maura/someone in her family. I just can't get much further than that, based upon the investigating agencies that Renner listed.

Those investigating agencies need not be mutually exclusive with the focus of the GJ, however.
Beagle

Amherst, MA

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#11272
Feb 5, 2012
 
Simply Caustic wrote:
<quoted text>
Saw your link - I stand corrected, it does state that 23 is the maximum number. I'd have to track down the link I posted, but I'm fairly certain I just assumed (and one should never do that!) that the grand jury is 23 people as a standard - but it clearly states it's the max., not otherwise.
Here's another link, from a Dayton University School of Law web page. The writer claims to be a Deputy DA in New York.

http://campus.udayton.edu/~grandjur/recent/hn...

"My suggestion would be to keep the grand jury system as it currently exists in New York State, but to significantly reduce the number of grand jurors from the current statutory requirement of 23, to a much lower number, as is the practice in the majority of states."
Beagle

Amherst, MA

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#11273
Feb 5, 2012
 
Simply Caustic wrote:
Most assuredly, it was not a one-man jury - judge or otherwise. Agreed?
Almost certainly not. But let's go with the typical grand jury.

The question, I think we both agree... is that if the Patriots lose, I'm going to go to the bathroom for a long, long time.
looking4amoose

Woonsocket, RI

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#11274
Feb 5, 2012
 

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citigirl wrote:
<quoted text>FM was approached and given a small knife in plastic. He went to the Concord STP barracks, they would not accept it. FM explained he wanted to drop off potential evidence from a crime and asked whether there were any officers or any place else to take it. He was told there were no officers come back Monday through Friday.He had to return back to work in Ma. So he wrote a cover letter to send with it to the Concord STP. He did recieve notification of delivery and receipt from the post office.
He should've called 911 and had them show up at the house and then give them the evidence. In fact, he hsould've never made arrangements to meet the guy--instead, he should've summonsed the police to go with him. The problem is, the chain of command of the evidence was lost. He has no way to prove who gave it to him--as far as the LE knows, its his knife and wasn't given to him at all. the guy who supposedly gave it to him lived on 112...why go to Concord. That's 60 - 75 minutes away
looking4amoose

Woonsocket, RI

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#11275
Feb 5, 2012
 

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citigirl wrote:
<quoted text>FM was approached and given a small knife in plastic. He went to the Concord STP barracks, they would not accept it. FM explained he wanted to drop off potential evidence from a crime and asked whether there were any officers or any place else to take it. He was told there were no officers come back Monday through Friday.He had to return back to work in Ma. So he wrote a cover letter to send with it to the Concord STP. He did recieve notification of delivery and receipt from the post office.
and at what point did you see the knife?
Simply Caustic

Homer Glen, IL

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#11276
Feb 5, 2012
 

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Beagle wrote:
<quoted text>Well, if they're used less frequently now, but were relatively common some time back, then I guess they're still used? They're just not relatively common any more.
But I agree, we're talking about 50 different states here and only one of them is relevant - NH. I don't have a theory about it, but I would agree with you that if a regular grand jury is convened, then prosecutors probably have someone in mind. I guess.
BTW, I was a little older than 6 when the Bears last won the Super Bowl. That's probably why the idea of a one-person grand jury, no longer so popular, stuck in my head.
You shoulda been a lawyer, Beagle. You aren't giving me an inch on this grand jury thing.
Beagle

Amherst, MA

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#11277
Feb 5, 2012
 

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All right, there's always next year.

Back to Maura. Let's assume there's a POI or suspect, a target of a grand jury investigation. I assume that means a crime against Maura may have been committed, but does it mean that the possible crime against her was what CAUSED her to disappear?

Just for example... Could Maura have been a crime victim in Woodsville, a crime investigated by the grand jury, and then her following disappearance is related to the initial crime, but not enough to say the initial crime caused her to disappear?

Could police have enough of a case for, say, some kind of robbery to convene a grand jury and they hope to get an indictment, and are assuming that the robbery was related to Maura's disappearance?

I'm not sure if this makes sense or not - what with me being a retard and all - but maybe you can understand what I'm getting at?
Captain Jack

East Weymouth, MA

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#11278
Feb 5, 2012
 

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WTH-the-original wrote:
<quoted text>
Well shack is as bright as a bag of doorknobs, so how did she know? I thought that she was the source of this little tidbit?
Bill
Not Shack ... actually an illustrious PI came up with that one.
Beagle

Amherst, MA

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#11279
Feb 5, 2012
 
Simply Caustic wrote:
Those investigating agencies need not be mutually exclusive with the focus of the GJ, however.
Not sure what this means. Thx.
Simply Caustic

Homer Glen, IL

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#11280
Feb 5, 2012
 

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Beagle wrote:
<quoted text>No idea. Would a grand jury be convened if Maura was regarded by the police to have disappeared into the woods?
Depends. Had they thought she simply vanished into the woods, fleeing due to her drinking, and died in the woods - then who is the bad guy? We know, sheerly by the fact that there was a grand jury, that SOMEONE was the focus. I haven't thought through the various options, and I am not trying to insult or hurt Fred....but could HE have potentially been the focus of the GJ? Or, maybe there really was a secret boyfriend she was meeting?

The only situation I can think of where Maura would have been the offender would be if LE were building a case against her for some offense, when she disappeared...they suspected that she fled, whether it be into the car of a friend following her, or somehow got herself to Canada or wherever...a run-of-the-mill credit card lower-level fraudster like Maura wouldn't be worth their time or effort. If it was more intricate then we know (major identity theft, etc.) then perhaps they were trying to build a case against her for that?

I just can't fathom who the focus of the GJ was.
Most leaks from GJ's come from witnesses. I'm surprised we haven't heard any leaks from it - then again, is it feasible that the credit card fraud info. was testified to at the grand jury, and a friend/family member of Maura's passed it along, from one person to the next, until we all got wind of it? Can't recall what year it was that that all came out.

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