Maura Murray

Wowzer the real one wrote:

<quoted text>I heard the scanner that night. I didn't hear any mention of responding units seeing anyone walking.

Wowzer. I didn't know that. Did you hear the earlier reported crash report on the scanner? Just curious. I use to believe that might have happened but I find it unlikely because of the lack of documentation that should be there. Can you explicitly state there was none? Or maybe you weren't near the scanner at that time?

Very interested in hearing what you have to say about this.
Bill

Snowy wrote:

<quoted text>
so, for the first time in 8 years you are disputing the existence of the email; evidence that she lied to excuse herself from her academic obligations.
and you now believe she was abducted from a location in the vicinity of UMASS...and murdered?

& herein lies a problem ... Citigirl said family never saw an e-mail. Citigirl did not say she is "disputing the existence of the
e-mail."

Bumping for Maura wrote:

<quoted text>
Bill,
How would you rate the result of the tracking dogs quest to trace Maura´s movements?
Does it really tell us anything much at all except that Maura at one point likely walked from her car up to the intersection of Rte 112 and Bradley Hill Road, and then perhaps back to her car for whatever reason?
I´m genuinely interested in your opinion on this point.
Thanks!

I can only tell you that the only person that really is qualified to talk about what their dog did and possible interpretation is the handler.

Saying that and to try to give you some type of answer. It certainly could mean anything from indeterminate to she left in a vehicle to me. The impressions that I was left with after the reported search and behavior of the dog was of someone who left the area, very likely by vehicle. The initial reports were that the dog tracked then lost the scent. o that would be interpreted by me as the dog had the scent of Maura, then lost it. tells us a couple of things. The person who wore those gloves was at the car, then she moved away from the car and her scent couldn't located anymore.

Just one last point, like I said before. Considering the days that passed and the amount of swirling going on from car traffic. It could have made for a very "confused" scent tracking. The handlers have routines that they do to try to get the dog back on scent. I am sure that was done, but the scent trail could have been to damaged by time and wind.

I know that isn't a definitive answer but I hope it helps make sense out of what the handler and dog might have been up against. Again, the handler might have no doubt about how her dog behaved and what it meant. I am, for lack of a better term guessing, educated, but a guess none the less.

Bill

citigirl wrote:

<quoted text>Family never saw an email to her academic supervisor.I dont believe an abductor and murder allows you phone call.

Perhaps this was a college prank gone wrong and a few students got together to prey on Maura as some sort of retribution? It would be easy enough to coerce a bank card PIN # out of someone under duress. Perhaps they accidentally killed (drugged?) her in the dorm room, on Sunday, February 8th and then cleaned it up and then made it look as if she skipped town? There might have been Jigger Johnson and the Salamone's information in her room. Anyone can send a short, generic email to a supervisor and a boyfriend...

Were the accident report forms available on-line at that time?(Meaning she might have printed them out early Sunday evening.)

I wonder who reported seeing Maura going to the UMass parking lot on Monday afternoon? Was that person ever considered a POI?

Nobody in the family has seen the ATM or liquor store videos? 21-year-old co-eds in jeans and a hoodie, isn't that the standard garb? Anyone could have slipped into Maura's clothes and put the hood up.

Maybe? One or two people drove the Saturn with MM in the trunk and arranged to have their brother or someone follow them in a red truck (MA plates) to pick them up. But the car stalled out at WB...

Man with a cigarette. Hair up/hair down. Upsetting phone call the week before. Londonderry ping. Flurry of activity at the trunk. Rag in tailpipe to muddy the waters. SAR dogs only track 100 yards eastward. The truck heads back to MA where there is a lot of unfrozen water.

Frostman wrote:

<quoted text>The truck heads back to MA where there is a lot of unfrozen water.

I'll just touch on this part. People in water have a very nasty habit, of ALWAYS bobbing to the surface. ALWAYS. Water is likely the absolute worst way to dispose of a body. Ask Peterson. He had an entire bay and he couldn't get it right. Both his wife and unborn son came back to shore, not just bobbed to the surface, they landed on shore. I mean, how lucky is this guy. He disposes of one body, and two come back on shore.

The rest is interesting but no one noticed all the friends missing from school at the same time? Why did they convoy up there? No one looked at the email address that the death in the family email came from? Am I the only one that thinks that this is a real stretch? Again, aren't there much easier ways to have Maura winding up at the corner with a crashed car? Than the pin stealing, kidnapping, fake emailing scenario?

I'm trying to do this in the nicest way possible without mentioning my hero, you know who.

Agree/Disagree???

Bill

Snowy wrote:

<quoted text>
amy ~ L4M has simplified enough to prompt some thoughts, although i still don't feel i can commit to a strong opinion without the benefit of more established facts about her life and relationships prior to her disappearance.
...
JMO, weighing the possibilities....most to least likely
B, C, or E, D, A

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Snowy. From what I have learned so far, here are my opinions:

Without knowing which areas were searched, by whom and when, it's impossible to determine the probability of her being in the woods. That would be my best guess for the following:

Statements made to keep records from being released to Maura's father, plus CCU involvement, lend me to believe that
1) foul play is suspected
and/or
2) LE doesn't want to be sued.

It's suspicious that Mr. Murray was initially denied even the most basic records, accident report for example, back when the case was still being handled as a missing person case. Lends me to believe that
1) foul play was suspected earlier on than publicly admitted
and/or
2) LE doesn't want to be sued.

LE refusing help from FBI lends me to believe that
1) they have more answers than they are letting on, but are waiting for a solid piece of evidence to bring the case
or
2) LE doesn't want to be sued.

When I say maybe LE doesn't want to be sued, I don't imply they intentionally did anything wrong. My understanding is that it's a small department, probably not used to handling situations of this nature, and they did the best they could at that time. Hindsight is 20/20, and everything I've read leads me to believe that even family members initially believed Maura fled the scene on her own. While everyone expected her to turn up, not handling certain items such as her car, laptop, etc, as evidence COULD HAVE compromised the investigation. Not accusing, just a possibility.

I agree that her past behavior and the planning could be relevant. If she was meeting someone, someone no one else knew about, that would be a strong POI. It makes sense that such a person's existence would not be released to the public or even to family.

If there was no such person, and she ran into some very coincidental bad luck, then her past behavior and planning would be irrelevant. Unlikely, but still a possibility.

Just windmilling. Woooosh.:-)

WHERE IS THE EDIT BUTTON.

:-)

"That would be my best guess EXCEPT for the following:"

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
I'll just touch on this part. People in water have a very nasty habit, of ALWAYS bobbing to the surface. ALWAYS. Water is likely the absolute worst way to dispose of a body. Ask Peterson. He had an entire bay and he couldn't get it right. Both his wife and unborn son came back to shore, not just bobbed to the surface, they landed on shore. I mean, how lucky is this guy. He disposes of one body, and two come back on shore.
The rest is interesting but no one noticed all the friends missing from school at the same time? Why did they convoy up there? No one looked at the email address that the death in the family email came from? Am I the only one that thinks that this is a real stretch? Again, aren't there much easier ways to have Maura winding up at the corner with a crashed car? Than the pin stealing, kidnapping, fake emailing scenario?
I'm trying to do this in the nicest way possible without mentioning my hero, you know who.
Agree/Disagree???
Bill

Agree..

This is my doppleganger..

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
The rest is interesting but no one noticed all the friends missing from school at the same time? Why did they convoy up there? No one looked at the email address that the death in the family email came from? Am I the only one that thinks that this is a real stretch? Again, aren't there much easier ways to have Maura winding up at the corner with a crashed car? Than the pin stealing, kidnapping, fake emailing scenario? I'm trying to do this in the nicest way possible without mentioning my hero, you know who. Agree/Disagree??? Bill

UMass is a large university, not junior kindergarden; there's no roll call and nobody would miss a few college kids for a day or two. If something went wrong with a college dorm "prank", the perps might want to make it look like a Walk Away... far away I should think. Perhaps the car accident interrupted a hastily hatched plan? Unfrozen water, cement, it's anyone's guess.

Who's your hero, Genghis Khan?

Frostman wrote:

<quoted text>
UMass is a large university, not junior kindergarden; there's no roll call and nobody would miss a few college kids for a day or two. If something went wrong with a college dorm "prank", the perps might want to make it look like a Walk Away... far away I should think. Perhaps the car accident interrupted a hastily hatched plan? Unfrozen water, cement, it's anyone's guess.
Who's your hero, Genghis Khan?

your theory is really great.. A whole different approach.. very interesting..

amy researches wrote:

<quoted text>
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Snowy. From what I have learned so far, here are my opinions:
Without knowing which areas were searched, by whom and when, it's impossible to determine the probability of her being in the woods. That would be my best guess for the following:
Statements made to keep records from being released to Maura's father, plus CCU involvement, lend me to believe that
1) foul play is suspected
and/or
2) LE doesn't want to be sued.
It's suspicious that Mr. Murray was initially denied even the most basic records, accident report for example, back when the case was still being handled as a missing person case. Lends me to believe that
1) foul play was suspected earlier on than publicly admitted
and/or
2) LE doesn't want to be sued.
LE refusing help from FBI lends me to believe that
1) they have more answers than they are letting on, but are waiting for a solid piece of evidence to bring the case
or
2) LE doesn't want to be sued.
When I say maybe LE doesn't want to be sued, I don't imply they intentionally did anything wrong. My understanding is that it's a small department, probably not used to handling situations of this nature, and they did the best they could at that time. Hindsight is 20/20, and everything I've read leads me to believe that even family members initially believed Maura fled the scene on her own. While everyone expected her to turn up, not handling certain items such as her car, laptop, etc, as evidence COULD HAVE compromised the investigation. Not accusing, just a possibility.
I agree that her past behavior and the planning could be relevant. If she was meeting someone, someone no one else knew about, that would be a strong POI. It makes sense that such a person's existence would not be released to the public or even to family.
If there was no such person, and she ran into some very coincidental bad luck, then her past behavior and planning would be irrelevant. Unlikely, but still a possibility.
Just windmilling. Woooosh.:-)

Holy shit!

Someone that disagrees with me that I don't need to beat the crap out of verbally. Why you ask?

She backs up everything she says with facts. While I don't necessarily agree with her I really can't argue with her because she has stated facts to back up her theory. I especially can't argue with a lot of what she says because she knows much more about the legal way things are done than I do.

I have always thought that the FBI wasn't needed. Your theory could certainly be correct. Mine was similar in that I figured that NHSP didn't have anything that they couldn't yet figure out in the case. If they ever needed the FBI lab or help I am sure they would accept/request it.

Again, I see it as less likely that there was foul play but your logic, and your laying out your case was impeccable. Many could learn a great deal from your approach. Examine, check the facts, investigate, use logic to figure out what you can, and then not only write something, back it up with well thought out, logical statements. Problem is. This takes time and a lot of work to do. Some might not be so inclined.

Again, WOW, great job, but, actually, I guess that is your job, so I probably should say, great work. 8-)

Bill

Frostman wrote:

<quoted text>
UMass is a large university, not junior kindergarden; there's no roll call and nobody would miss a few college kids for a day or two. If something went wrong with a college dorm "prank", the perps might want to make it look like a Walk Away... far away I should think. Perhaps the car accident interrupted a hastily hatched plan? Unfrozen water, cement, it's anyone's guess.
Who's your hero, Genghis Khan?

Ahhhhhhh Genghis..... Oops, no, I was actually talking about Occam. A simpler way to have Maura appear at the crash site could be made.

My point was more along that a group of friends would likely know that their other friends all rode off into the sunset and then one of those friends was later found missing. I think that after eight years, someone would squeal by now.

Bill

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
Holy shit!
Someone that disagrees with me that I don't need to beat the crap out of verbally. Why you ask?
She backs up everything she says with facts. While I don't necessarily agree with her I really can't argue with her because she has stated facts to back up her theory. I especially can't argue with a lot of what she says because she knows much more about the legal way things are done than I do.
I have always thought that the FBI wasn't needed. Your theory could certainly be correct. Mine was similar in that I figured that NHSP didn't have anything that they couldn't yet figure out in the case. If they ever needed the FBI lab or help I am sure they would accept/request it.
Again, I see it as less likely that there was foul play but your logic, and your laying out your case was impeccable. Many could learn a great deal from your approach. Examine, check the facts, investigate, use logic to figure out what you can, and then not only write something, back it up with well thought out, logical statements. Problem is. This takes time and a lot of work to do. Some might not be so inclined.
Again, WOW, great job, but, actually, I guess that is your job, so I probably should say, great work. 8-)
Bill

I respect your theory also, and I would agree with you if someone could tell me which areas were searched by whom and when. If someone could tell me that the construction worker definitely saw Maura five miles down the road. If we knew who posted on Renner's blog that there were definitely footprints leading into the woods, and that person turned out to be credible or had photographs. But with all of the unknowns, I'm left with grasping at the straws of the few things I do kinda sorta understand. If any of what I stated is factually wrong, please feel free to correct me. I won't take it personally.

Just so everyone knows.. This is me, Emmett.. Desenrascanco translates to : A fresh start from a bad one, a new approach, to forgive & forget.. & Yes I know its offtopic, sorry..

WTH-the-original wrote:

<quoted text> My point was more along that a group of friends would likely know that their other friends all rode off into the sunset and then one of those friends was later found missing. I think that after eight years, someone would squeal by now. Bill

If two students decided to confront MM because of, say, the CC incident and things got out of control in a single dorm room (an over-spiked drink) they would need to get rid of the evidence. In this scenario, I'm NOT suggesting that MM was close friends with them.

Over the years it's been stated/written -- some said they didn't know Maura was on their floor, she wasn't sociable, She's in Sherbrooke, Quebec... Perhaps meaningless comments or maybe thrown out there to lend credence to the Walk Away and/or "I saw nothing" theory. IMO, there would be no benefit to squealing whatsoever.

amy researches wrote:

<quoted text>
I respect your theory also, and I would agree with you if someone could tell me which areas were searched by whom and when. If someone could tell me that the construction worker definitely saw Maura five miles down the road. If we knew who posted on Renner's blog that there were definitely footprints leading into the woods, and that person turned out to be credible or had photographs. But with all of the unknowns, I'm left with grasping at the straws of the few things I do kinda sorta understand. If any of what I stated is factually wrong, please feel free to correct me. I won't take it personally.

Yep, all the unknowns and possibilities.

Respect. An interesting word. That is what gets generated when people take the time to research and reason and back up their work, instead of throwing out their first most fanciful guesses.

I would love to see the areas that were searched and the thinking of why there were searched and how extensively. All very important things I wish we could know that has been lacking.

And no. No one takes it personally when it is the theory that is being talked about because you are searching for the truth. Getting to it requires honest gathering of the facts. That doesn't involve personalities or stories.

And yes, you also have my respect.
Bill

Desenrascanco wrote:

Just so everyone knows.. This is me, Emmett.. Desenrascanco translates to : A fresh start from a bad one, a new approach, to forgive & forget.. & Yes I know its offtopic, sorry..

Good to see you still here Emmett. Nice name. Hope you stick around.

Bill

Frostman wrote:

<quoted text>
If two students decided to confront MM because of, say, the CC incident and things got out of control in a single dorm room (an over-spiked drink) they would need to get rid of the evidence. In this scenario, I'm NOT suggesting that MM was close friends with them.
Over the years it's been stated/written -- some said they didn't know Maura was on their floor, she wasn't sociable, She's in Sherbrooke, Quebec... Perhaps meaningless comments or maybe thrown out there to lend credence to the Walk Away and/or "I saw nothing" theory. IMO, there would be no benefit to squealing whatsoever.

Yea, college pranks have gone wrong many times! & stealing peoples credit card numbers & using their money could have very well made many people mad, as its my understanding that she took quite a few #s..

A couple of thoughts ....

First on the rag in the tailpipe and the fact that CS apparently knew about it early on that night. Over the last 8 years several posters have experimented with putting a similar type rag into the tailpipes of their cars and have reported that the rags were blown out either immediately or pretty quickly. This would suggest that the rag was not placed in her tailpipe by someone when she made a stop for gas (if she did), etc. Therefore, the rag was likely placed in the tailpipe there at the scene after the Saturn crashed.

The Saturn was supposedly running on only 3 cylinders. I wonder if the decreased power would have allowed a rag to stay pushed up in the tailpipe had it been placed there at some time prior to the crash -- does anyone know?

If Maura herself put the rag in the tailpipe at the scene of the Saturn crash before she left (however she left), it could only have been pushed in as far as her fingers could push it which would not be very far. So, since apparently it was really shoved way up in there, maybe she picked up a stick and pushed it far in with that. If she had some concern the car might be stolen, maybe she thought it would not be driveable with a rag wedged up in the tailpipe. If she then dropped the stick on the ground under the tailpipe or left it leaning against the back of the car, that might have prompted CS to have taken a flashlight and looked into the tailpipe. Something had to have attracted his attention to the tailpipe since it sounds like the rag was not hanging out.

My other thought is this: were there any high school students at the time who rode with the SBD when he headed home because the student/s lived near him? Or maybe a student rode with him that night because someone was going to pick the student up at or near the SBDs home? If there was a student on the bus still, that student might have got out to help Maura. Something like that could explain what F Westman thought was a lit cigarette at the Saturn location. It could also explain a red pickup sitting on BHR (if that is a fact)-- maybe the student and Maura went to the truck and left the scene that way.

This may be information that LE knows but has not been released to the public for any number of good reasons.

Advocate wrote:

A couple of thoughts ....
First on the rag in the tailpipe and the fact that CS apparently knew about it early on that night. Over the last 8 years several posters have experimented with putting a similar type rag into the tailpipes of their cars and have reported that the rags were blown out either immediately or pretty quickly. This would suggest that the rag was not placed in her tailpipe by someone when she made a stop for gas (if she did), etc. Therefore, the rag was likely placed in the tailpipe there at the scene after the Saturn crashed.
The Saturn was supposedly running on only 3 cylinders. I wonder if the decreased power would have allowed a rag to stay pushed up in the tailpipe had it been placed there at some time prior to the crash -- does anyone know?

My next door neighbor owns wallace exxon & has plenty of cars there.. I have video on my iPhone, & would be willing to make a video for all to see using some "klunkers", if anyone would like me to.. I dont know how to youtube, but I can record a video, I can perhaps get my friends to show me how to make it a youtube!

I done the experiment with 3 different cars, & all were pretty much the same result.. all blowing out..

If someone would kindly put a list, if yall really want this done, of ways to insert the rag - regular like for a tow, stuffed hard with a closehanger/stick, stuff like that.. I will gladly do it for everyone!!