Since: Dec 11
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anonymousone wrote: I read Fred Murrays narrative statement to the Massachusetts University Police at Amherst and discovered that he sounded agitated about Maura wrecking his car and (somewhat understandably so) and Maura was very upset. Maura whimpered often when spoke to him about the accident and when she went back into the dorm she appeared upset and moving slowly as if she was thinking deeply. I think that with the combination of Maura discovering her bf, Billy, cheated on her and her wrecking her fathers car this stressed her out and she simply wanted to get away for a couple days.I think that the 'staged accident' theory should be completely thrown out. But on top of all of this she just had wrecked her own car and didn't have any idea what to do about her father being angry or agitated etc.. At that point in time especially after the second accident in NH many events just unfolded that probably 'shocked' her and I don't feel she was thinking rationally at all. I am just trying to think about what I would do if all that was going on and what action I would take in her circumstances. This is on top of the credit card misuse charge she recieved earler and potential DWI with this new accident. Maybe she just took a ride without thinking clearly about what to do next and this is when something happened. It's possible that Maura was going to tell her Dad about all her troubles on that Sunday, but the Hadley crash got in the way. Perhaps the purchase of a new used car for Maura got put on the back burner because they weren't sure that that Maura's accident in the Toyota would be covered by insurance and the $4,000 might have been needed for the Toyota repairs? I completely agree that she thought a few days in the mountains might help her get a better grip on any problems or decisions she was facing. The dent in the Saturn looks as if the car was crunched into a squarish post at a low speed. Perhaps the bumper popped back out after impact but the hood crumpled. If this happened at a rest stop or gas station it may have cause someone take notice of her -- i.e. Red Truck. She left her toiletries, running shoes and expensive jewelry in the Saturn so she clearly wasn't expecting to be away from her vehicle for long, certainly not overnight.
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hannah_b
Sweden
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anonymousone wrote: Is anyone aware how reliable search dogs are? I believe that the search dog did indeed track her scent 100 yards east on Route 112 but am uncertain if she was picked up there by a vehicle or if she kept walking/running. Does anyone have some info on this? My understanding is search dogs (non-cadaver) can track a specific scent for up to 3 weeks reliably as long as conditions are favorable. The search was done just 2 days after the accident. Search dogs donīt track at all. They go for airborne scent and are used when there is no known point or limited area where a track is known or thought to either start or pass by. A tracking dog, which was used in this case, is very reliable when it is on the trail. However, they may lose the scent trail, and if they do and do not find it again, they are completely clueless. A good handler is usually very good at reading their dogs reactions and body language, and can tell if the dog is on or off the trail. Remember that scent is really molecules that when they fall off the scent object are close together, but disperese both sideways and upwards over time. This means the outlay of a "track" varies depending on its age. Wind and moisture also contributes to itīs changes. The easiest track to follow is about 30-60 minutes old, and this is what beginner dogs are trained on. A ground scent trail several days old is very difficult to follow, just how difficult depends on weather and microclimate conditions. A blood trail is easier, and are usually not very difficult to follow even if several days old. Ideally, they should have brought in a bloodhound, but these are few and I guess not easy to come by even for LE.
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hannah_b
Sweden
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Frostman wrote: <quoted text>
It's possible that Maura was going to tell her Dad about all her troubles on that Sunday, but the Hadley crash got in the way. Perhaps the purchase of a new used car for Maura got put on the back burner because they weren't sure that that Maura's accident in the Toyota would be covered by insurance and the $4,000 might have been needed for the Toyota repairs? I completely agree that she thought a few days in the mountains might help her get a better grip on any problems or decisions she was facing.
The dent in the Saturn looks as if the car was crunched into a squarish post at a low speed. Perhaps the bumper popped back out after impact but the hood crumpled. If this happened at a rest stop or gas station it may have cause someone take notice of her -- i.e. Red Truck. She left her toiletries, running shoes and expensive jewelry in the Saturn so she clearly wasn't expecting to be away from her vehicle for long, certainly not overnight. What amazes me is Fredīs statement to LE that he woke up to find Maura sleeping. This contradicts previously known "facts" in the case (obviously not facts at all), that she woke him up on arrival at the motel. She crashed his car, went to the motel and went to sleep. I believe (no facts, just my thoughts) she must have been pretty drunk to do that.
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looking4amoose
Woonsocket, RI
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Judged:
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hannah_b wrote: <quoted text>
What amazes me is Fredīs statement to LE that he woke up to find Maura sleeping. This contradicts previously known "facts" in the case (obviously not facts at all), that she woke him up on arrival at the motel. She crashed his car, went to the motel and went to sleep. I believe (no facts, just my thoughts) she must have been pretty drunk to do that. how did she get in the room without waking him?
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Since: Nov 08
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hannah_b wrote: <quoted text>A tracking dog, which was used in this case, is very reliable when it is on the trail. However, they may lose the scent trail, and if they do and do not find it again, they are completely clueless. A good handler is usually very good at reading their dogs reactions and body language, and can tell if the dog is on or off the trail. Several things to point out. The molecules of scent come from the rafts of skin that flake off of all people, living or dead. When a dog loses the scent trail. The handler is really the only one that can make that determination. There are standardized techniques that a handler can use to find a lost scent. Only by doing that will they know for sure that the scent trail is lost. On another note, the concept that a dog can track a person in a car is an interesting concept but common sense and many professional dog handlers don't believe that it is possible. With tracking/trailing dogs or human trackers, the proof is in - was a successful track done to resolution. Meaning did the dog or person find what was being searched for. I would need proof that a dog could track a person inside of a closed car. There are standards that dogs and handlers must meet to be considered usable by most agencies. There are several organizations that qualify teams. I am not aware of any organization that qualifies a dog to be car driven/searching qualified, likely for a very good reason. Bill
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Consider this
Hingham, MA
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Trailing Dogs are trained to follow a specific human scent, which may or may not approximate the path the person took because of factors affecting the dispersal of scent such as wind and temperature. To start trailing a specific individual, the dog needs a scent article that the person has directly handled. The dog is then started on the trail at the point where the victim was last seen (PLS). Trailing dogs will follow the route of scent deposited on the ground as a person moves through an area. This deposited scent trail is affected by wind and other weather conditions so the dog may not follow the person's exact footsteps. The trailing dog may work parallel to the path the individual actually walked. A trained trailing dog can follow the steps of someone who passed by several days earlier, discriminate between it and another's trail, and follow it over hills and through marshland. Dogs can even trail people in cars, from the scent that blows out of the window or through the vents of the car. http://www.westjerseyk9.org/types/index.html
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Since: Nov 08
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Consider this wrote: Trailing Dogs are trained to follow a specific human scent, which may or may not approximate the path the person took because of factors affecting the dispersal of scent such as wind and temperature. To start trailing a specific individual, the dog needs a scent article that the person has directly handled. The dog is then started on the trail at the point where the victim was last seen (PLS). Trailing dogs will follow the route of scent deposited on the ground as a person moves through an area. This deposited scent trail is affected by wind and other weather conditions so the dog may not follow the person's exact footsteps. The trailing dog may work parallel to the path the individual actually walked. A trained trailing dog can follow the steps of someone who passed by several days earlier, discriminate between it and another's trail, and follow it over hills and through marshland. Dogs can even trail people in cars, from the scent that blows out of the window or through the vents of the car. http://www.westjerseyk9.org/types/index.html You are getting to see some of the bullshit that some handlers try to sell to the average person. Real handlers that I have meet and used do not claim to have dogs that can track people in cars. Look at the requirements for trail assessment in WJK9SAR and the criteria that the use. http://www.westjerseyk9.org/requirements/AirS... They specify for evaluation criteria ARDA, NASAR, IPWDA and GSARDA. None of them have any qualifying criteria for tracking someone in a car. Also interesting that no one in the team use bloodhounds from what they are showing. The dogs ability is only part of the equation. The dogs drive, intelligence, and other criteria as well as the handlers abilities all play a part in that team. So, believe what you wish to believe. I haven't seen a dog do it, I haven't seen proof of a dog doing it, and there is no criteria to prove a dog can do it. If someone had a dog that can do it, they would be showing him off to the world. And as a footnote, I have been with dogs on two police searches just recently where the dog couldn't find a perp. On two different occasions within 15-30 minutes of the perp going through the area they couldn't track the perp. The dogs, and in particular the handlers are not infallible. Some teams I trust, others I have had remarkably bad luck with. Bill
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Jenkins
United States
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Seems like only a few dogs have been able to follow a scent from a car. I know of at least one case that took place someplace outside of Detroit, definitely in Michigan where it was claimed that a dog tracked a boys sent who was in the trunk of someones car. Supposedly tracked it over 5 miles. I definitely saw that on tv but I almost seemed unbelieveable to me. How could the dog even do it? Do they have the dog riding in a car too ?lol they must have to walk the 5 miles then? Seems strange to me and I know for a fact that 99% of tracking dogs can not do this. I would suspect that if a dog did have that ability it would b very specifically trained to perform that task.
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Shack
Groton, MA
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Jenkins wrote: Seems like only a few dogs have been able to follow a scent from a car. I know of at least one case that took place someplace outside of Detroit, definitely in Michigan where it was claimed that a dog tracked a boys sent who was in the trunk of someones car. Supposedly tracked it over 5 miles. I definitely saw that on tv but I almost seemed unbelieveable to me. How could the dog even do it? Do they have the dog riding in a car too ?lol they must have to walk the 5 miles then? Seems strange to me and I know for a fact that 99% of tracking dogs can not do this.
I would suspect that if a dog did have that ability it would b very specifically trained to perform that task. Wish I could erase the memory of the guy with his bloodhound. The guy's feet were on the edge of the pavement and his dog was to his left in the dirt. Both running/trotting whatever...the guy was huffing and when he stopped his dog..the dog was fit to be tied..he didn't want to stop....Really doesn't matter to me if I am believed. I do remember that I felt sorry for the dog with his dripping body fluids. And, I feel sorry that Maura hasn't been found.
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Shack
Groton, MA
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While I am it...Maura's family and friends know and have known from the beginning as to why I have hung in there. The Haverhill area has been my domain for over 70 years. When I first heard about Maura missing ..it was the first words "there's a man going around town being a pia looking for his daughter"...My first thoughts were anger, disgust and embarrasement, for an area I loved. My second thoughts were for the family. Now with mixed feelings...my father's family is from there...lives there...They live and abide with the rotating LE..State and local...I have no say in the innate mindset there. People from "around" have had their say on these Forums...these are mine...
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looking4amoose
Woonsocket, RI
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Shack wrote: While I am it...Maura's family and friends know and have known from the beginning as to why I have hung in there. The Haverhill area has been my domain for over 70 years. When I first heard about Maura missing ..it was the first words "there's a man going around town being a pia looking for his daughter"...My first thoughts were anger, disgust and embarrasement, for an area I loved. My second thoughts were for the family.
Now with mixed feelings...my father's family is from there...lives there...They live and abide with the rotating LE..State and local...I have no say in the innate mindset there.
People from "around" have had their say on these Forums...these are mine... Shack, that PIA caused my dog to go THROUGH my sliding glass doors when HE and his compadres were searching on my property without my PERMISSION. Did he even OPFFER to pay for the damages to my house or the dogs vet bills? No he didn't--all he did was get in his car and drive away. THAT is one of the many reasons the area residents spoke of Fred that way.
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Since: Nov 08
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Jenkins wrote: Seems like only a few dogs have been able to follow a scent from a car. I know of at least one case that took place someplace outside of Detroit, definitely in Michigan where it was claimed that a dog tracked a boys sent who was in the trunk of someones car. Supposedly tracked it over 5 miles. I definitely saw that on tv but I almost seemed unbelieveable to me. How could the dog even do it? Do they have the dog riding in a car too ?lol they must have to walk the 5 miles then? Seems strange to me and I know for a fact that 99% of tracking dogs can not do this.
I would suspect that if a dog did have that ability it would b very specifically trained to perform that task. I have also seen dogs/handlers that stumbled onto crap also after wandering around for an hour when clearly the dog wasn't on a trail. Later to be found out that it had nothing to do with the subject on hand. Can we say bullshit? I would be more inclined to believe that a dog MIGHT be able to track somebody in a convertible or a trunk. A trunk being less tight than the cab of a vehicle. And don't disregard just plain lying and planting of evidence like Ms. Sandra Anderson did with her dog. Before they figured out what she was doing, she was the greatest dog and handler alive according to some. Bill
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Since: Nov 08
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looking4amoose wrote: <quoted text>Shack, that PIA caused my dog to go THROUGH my sliding glass doors when HE and his compadres were searching on my property without my PERMISSION. Did he even OPFFER to pay for the damages to my house or the dogs vet bills? No he didn't--all he did was get in his car and drive away. THAT is one of the many reasons the area residents spoke of Fred that way. Don't waste your time with Shack. To her, anything that was done, and could have been done, was within Freds right. No one cares more or is a stronger advocate for the trampling of any rights than Shack when it pertains to a runaway from a vehicle while drinking. So what looking4moose, they didn't find Maura in your root cellar. How many times did they go through your property without permission? Doesn't matter, they had the right. Your just dumb country folk who don't have the rights of us other people. Nor should you. You keep hiding our pretty college kids in your basement. Just ask Shack. I can just imagine the screams if someone did this to her. Bill
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paris
Minneapolis, MN
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looking4amoose wrote: <quoted text>Shack, that PIA caused my dog to go THROUGH my sliding glass doors when HE and his compadres were searching on my property without my PERMISSION. Did he even OPFFER to pay for the damages to my house or the dogs vet bills? No he didn't--all he did was get in his car and drive away. THAT is one of the many reasons the area residents spoke of Fred that way. I wonder who threw the nutts, really. This cause and effect, your dog going bonkers trying to protect his home and you, he breaks through the glass to confont everyone. Never mind the vet bills, he was injured in the process and I feel bad for that. What you had to pay out is unfair too. I think it's great that you can still do what you do concerning Maura. I'm quite sure you are big hearted, looking4amoose, thank you.
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paris
Minneapolis, MN
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Whatever melts your butter and you must have a tub full. I'm going to play with littles kids now for most of the day while you throw things around. How anybody can think less of what happened because ppl tresspassed in their yard is really pretty sad to say the least. I suppose you think she asked for it.
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paris
Minneapolis, MN
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sometimes I think you guys are creeps.
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Since: Nov 08
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paris wrote: Whatever melts your butter and you must have a tub full. I'm going to play with littles kids now for most of the day while you throw things around. How anybody can think less of what happened because ppl tresspassed in their yard is really pretty sad to say the least.
I suppose you think she asked for it. Who are you talking to? And what are you talking about? Did Maura deserve what happened to her. I don't know what happened to her. Would she be OK if she just stood at the car like she was supposed to. Very likely. How any of that ties in to what was done to looking4moose, I have no idea. You seem to want to link the two when there is no linkage that can be made and many legal reasons why linkage isn't allowed. If someone wants to crawl around on my property they should ask permission. They are required to legally and it is just common decency. And the question should be asked, "How many morons does it take to go over a piece of property before it can be determined that someone isn't there?" And there are three or four people out there throwing bulbs, nuts and lemons at me when there are up to 50 reading at any given minute. I would love to know why I should give a rats ass what anonymous people think? Because, I don't. I sleep very soundly at night and I write what I see as the truth whenever I have the time. Bill
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anonymousone
Plattsburgh, NY
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I wonder if the police talked to local violent offenders. These are the people who would be the most likely suspects for an abduction. People do not do this sort of thing only once it is part of a pattern.
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hannah_b
Sweden
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WTH-the-original wrote: <quoted text>
I have also seen dogs/handlers that stumbled onto crap also after wandering around for an hour when clearly the dog wasn't on a trail. Later to be found out that it had nothing to do with the subject on hand.
Can we say bullshit?
I would be more inclined to believe that a dog MIGHT be able to track somebody in a convertible or a trunk. A trunk being less tight than the cab of a vehicle.
And don't disregard just plain lying and planting of evidence like Ms. Sandra Anderson did with her dog. Before they figured out what she was doing, she was the greatest dog and handler alive according to some.
Bill That dog was very good, but obviously his handler didnīt trust him to do his job. A sad case of handlerīs ego getting in the way of the love and trust that is the foundation of all good dog handling.
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Anne
Groton, VT
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looking4amoose wrote: <quoted text>Shack, that PIA caused my dog to go THROUGH my sliding glass doors when HE and his compadres were searching on my property without my PERMISSION. Did he even OPFFER to pay for the damages to my house or the dogs vet bills? No he didn't--all he did was get in his car and drive away. THAT is one of the many reasons the area residents spoke of Fred that way. That is not right looking4a moose. It really is unfortunate that we cannot rewind the initial searches. I am wondering, is the the dog okay, I had one go through my sliding doors once, and it amazed me the power of a dog wanting to leave to protect.
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Dating
